In Conversation With: Jay Blades
Earlier in 2022, I was offered the chance to come on board and work with The Black Fund - an organisation incredibly similar to The Black Project, but with the resources to make and support grassroots change. It was started by Leigh-anne Pinnock and her fiance Andre Gray, with the support of Leigh-anne’s sister Sairah. And one of their trustee’s is long time mentor and friend, Jay Blades.
One of the first things I’ve been asked to do since coming on board is to sit down and chat with Jay about life, his involvement in TBF, and his new documentary Jay Blades: Learning to read at 51.
Brianna (TBP)
Hi, Jay.
Jay Blades
Hello, how are you doing?
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, not too bad. How are you?
Jay Blades
I'm very good. I can't complain. Can't complain.So, you're doing social media for the black fund, is that right?
Brianna (TBP)
Yes, I am. Yeah.
Jay Blades
Okay, cool. Yeah. Big. It's a big deal. It's a big deal. It's very exciting.
Brianna (TBP)
It kind of came out of nowhere, actually. I just messaged Leigh-anne last year, I'd done some work with Reggie Yates. And I said, would you like me to do something similar for you and Boxing Day? And she was like 100%, message Sairah. And I put this event together. And Sairah went, you did this in three days, like you have to come and work for us. So literally just out of nowhere. Yeah. So.
Jay Blades
That's very cool man. So what event did you do for Boxing Day? What was that, I must have missed it.
Brianna (TBP)
I put on a free screening of it in Feltham for the kids at Hillingdon School.
Jay Blades
Cool. Nice one. Oh, good on you, man. Good on you. All right. So what we got today is an interview. You're interviewing me, is that right?
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah. Well, I don't like to call an interview, because then it sounds too formal. Just a chat really. I like to have just a casual conversation. So if you would like to just introduce yourself first to the followers.
Jay Blades
I'm Jay Blades, and I'm a presenter on the BBC.
Brianna (TBP)
And so we're definitely gonna talk about the documentary. But before we get into that, I want to talk about something you touch on briefly in it, which is growing up. You grew up in Hackney, is that correct?
Jay Blades
Yeah, I grew up in Hackney, Hackney/Stoke Newington is where I grew up. I was there from - cor blimey, a very young age. From birth until I left there when I was about 20.
Brianna (TBP)
So what was that experience like both in terms of being a black teenager in the 80s. And, you know, going from primary school and secondary school, as someone that didn't know how to read.
Jay Blades
Growing up in Hackney was cool. I think it was probably one of the poorest boroughs in the 70s and 80s. There was a lot of deprivation. Now there was some people say there was a lot of crime, I didn't really see too much crime. But it was, I would say the best time of my entire life, to tell you the truth. I grew up in a poor environment. But a lot of people think being poor is kind of like, there's always a cloud overview. But to tell you the truth I remember sunshine. I remember it being a really great time.
And then it all kind of changed when I went to secondary school. Going to secondary school was - Yeah, it was a definite eye opener because it was the first time I experienced racism. And growing up in Hackney at the time, the 70s, the 80s - And what I found out later, is that the elders used to look after us in the area, so they would fight the skinheads or the racists to keep them away from us young ones, but we never knew that. It was just you had the respect for your elders. You didn't know the trials and tribulations that they was going through, but later on in my life, I found out that they were making sure that we were protected. But as soon as I went to secondary school, I went to secondary school in an area that was outside of Hackney. So this was Islington. And there was a number of black people there already, but I think I was probably the one that wasn't going to take any rubbish. I think it was the second week of my first year - which is I think year 7 nowadays - That I used to get called all these names under the sun. I thought these were names of endearment, and they were giving me nicknames, and so on and so forth. But when I brought those names back to the community that I was living in, the elders told me, No, those are names that are quite racist. So one of the elders came to my school and told me point out who's calling you those names. So I pointed him out. And he went ahead and beat up about six people in the school.
Little did I know that I have to go back to the school. He didn't have to go to the school. So obviously, I was public enemy number one, because I had brought my big brother, my cousin to kind of beat them up. So it was just constant fighting that I did. Also there was a friend of mine, who went to school with me, we went to the same primary school, and it was only me and him that went over to that secondary school. And he was a young Asian guy, and basically he used to wear national health glasses a bit like the glasses I wear now. And they used to constantly just break his glasses, beat him up and bully him all the time. And there was the time where he - I think it was in the second week as well - but there was a time he was in the corridor. And I remember going up to him, and he was crying, but he was holding back the tears. And he said to me, he goes, "Oh, Jay, I can't fix them." And I said, "What can't you fix what's wrong? What's happening?" He said, "I can't fix them." And I didn't know exactly what he was chatting about. But he was holding these glasses. And he just showed me, like just that he just went like that. And all up these glasses on the arms, there was like, tape, there was a bandage, there was loads of bits on his glasses where he had had them broken, and he just fixed them. But this time, he couldn't fix them. And that's when I *clicks*, I just snapped, I kind of lost it. And I think again, second week of my first year, until the last week of my, I think it was fifth year, I was just fighting every day was fighting.
I didn't really recognize that I couldn't read because I was in the lowest set of our class anyway. My school was broken up. It used to be a grammar school, but then it turned into a comprehensive. So they had this kind of system where they had the P's, which were the perfect kids. They had the M's, which was the medium learners. And then they had the L's, and we called ourselves kind of like the losers. But we were just like the learners. And they didn't really care too much for us. So it wasn't identified. And I never identified that I couldn't read that well. And basically, I just ended up fighting all the time. So reading wasn't - I didn't do schoolwork, there was nothing really for me to do in there. And hence when I went to university, and I found that I had the reading ability of an 11 year old, that makes perfect sense, because that's when my education stopped. It stopped when I went into secondary school when I was 11. So it makes perfect sense. So I can read, my reading is just very, very basic. Yeah, because a lot of people think I can't read but I can read, I can read the words that I've memorized. So certain words like book, door, all those kinds of words that you come across on a day to day basis. But you give me a word that is not in my kind of, not in my vocabulary, it's not in my memory, I won't know how to say it. It just goes past me.
Brianna (TBP)
Just to go back really quickly, because what you said about the friend that you had is really lovely. And I think it shines a really beautiful light on your character that it wasn't yourself you were fighting for it was someone else was going through it. And that was what flipped the switch for you. And I think it's interesting that now your job on the repair shop is to fix things for other people. I think there's a really lovely thing there that from a young age you wanted to help others?
Jay Blades
Well, yeah, from a young age. And I think even before the repair shop, I've done loads of community work. And basically it was always about protecting and also inspiring the underdog. So people that didn't really have a chance in our society, just making sure that they did have a chance. So that's what my work has been doing. I've been doing community work for over 20 years. So just doing the TV stuff now. It's kind of like for me, that's exactly what I want to try and do I want to do shows that celebrate and kind of protect the underdog. So whether that is repairing an item, whether that is celebrating people, I've done a show called Jay's Yorkshire Workshop, which is all about the unsung heroes in our community, making items for them. Bespoke items and just giving them a pat on the back and saying what you're doing is absolutely brilliant for the community or for this family you've sorted out. So it's kind something I've been doing a lot and I never knew where it came from. But I think it came from my childhood because when I was growing up in Hackney, it was a massive community. I had loads of extended family, I had uncles and aunties that weren't related to me. So it was just a natural progression to just go from that to then doing that kind of work as well. It's, it's almost as if that's the thing to do. Is the way I see it, yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
Totally agree with you. And it's something that a little bit later I want to come back to as well. Because I very much agree with that. So let's talk about the documentary then. My big question is, why? Because I think many people at 51 may have turned around said, "You know what, I've got this far. I'm doing all right. I don't need to learn to read, I'm fine." So what was it that made you go "I want to do this"?
Jay Blades
There's a few reasons for it. And I don't really need to learn to read to tell you the honest truth, I wanted to. And when I look at it, you have computers that can read emails to me, I have a phone that can read any text or any bits and bobs to me, it's really easy to get away with not reading nowadays. But I wanted to do it for a few reasons. One of those was to inspire people that I'm never going to meet. There are a number of people out there in our society that have a problem with reading. And I take this kind of philosophy that if you have a reach, or if you have an audience, if you're a celebrity or something, if you're not using your influence for good? You might as well sit down and move out of the way, because I'm not that type of person. So to have an influence over people, or people to recognize me and be willing to take on board anything I say, I might as well use it for that. So to support those people, but also I wanted to read to my daughter, I wanted to read a bedtime story, which I've never ever done and she's 15 years old now. With the kind of pace that I'm learning to read, she might be married and have kids by the time I actually get to do it, but at least I'm gonna say that I'll be able to do it. So it's those kinds of reasons and also to show people that if I can do it, if I can decide to be as open as honest as - what's the word I'm looking for? - as vulnerable as I was in that documentary, then to me that's ideal. Because then people could say, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And the amount of messages I've received from school teachers from external teachers and stuff like that teaching people who they've shown a video to - just people in general, it's been unbelievable. Unbelievable. So it's worked for one of the reasons why I wanted to do it.
Brianna (TBP)
That's amazing. And it hasn't been easy, like we see in the documentary that it's not an easy thing to do, to learn to read. What was the hardest part for you because I know you learned that you needed a coloured overlay. To make the word stop moving around, was that kind of a breakthrough moment?
Jay Blades
There's loads of breakthrough moments. There's like learning vowels. There's learning syllables, there's learning I needed a colour overlay. I knew I needed one. But I've never had one because I just didn't have it. I had a university but not in general life. But the breakthrough moments to tell the truth there are so many I can't just pick out one. I think, for me, breakthrough moments is seeing the response from people. So the amount of people that have watched it, the amount of people that it has affected, the amount of people that have decided to volunteer for a charity to help people read and then also the amount of people that are taking up learning to read. Those are the breakthrough moments for me really, the knock on effect. Don't get me wrong, I will get mine when I fully finished all of the books that I've got doing this. There's five of them, and I've just started book number three. So I've basically got like, yeah, I've got three books to go before I can say like, right, I'm there, I finished.
Brianna (TBP)
It is genuinely very inspiring. Because I don't have dyslexia but I have something called Irlen syndrome, where instead of it being like you said, words piercing your brain, it looks like if someone took a sheet and shook the page. It's like motion sickness. So when I was at school, I was like the opposite of you. I was in the top sets. But I was really struggling to be able to read without pain, but no one was picking up on the fact that I was struggling. It was like like, well, you're, you're going through it so - but I was in pain all the time. And it's amazing that a piece of plastic, literally a piece of plastic put on a piece of paper changes something so simple for us.
Jay Blades
It does and it's almost as if the piece of plastic is that personal trainer for the words. It just holds them in the right position. It says right, this is what you should be doing. Whereas when I see words they do pierce into my head and they move about, so to get that bit of plastic and just slow it down and it's absolutely fine. But I knew about the plastic before because I got tested at university and they gave me a plastic then that I used to put on the books. And that would help but it still doesn't take away like, I've got a lot of learning to do. It's like, I'm learning from scratch. I'm learning phonics. And yeah, it's really difficult.
Brianna (TBP)
So we saw in the documentary that - spoiler for anyone that hasn't seen it yet - you do manage to read that book Olivia to your daughter, and that was your goal. What's your next big goal? What's the next thing that you're like, This is what I want to do.
Jay Blades
Well, the next thing is probably to read my own book. I've written a book with a ghostwriter. And I've never read my book, I've never read a page. I think the most I've read is probably just the front cover, I haven't even read the back, it's just quite basic. So that would be the next goal. And I would like to just read out loud, like fluently because most people can read very, like just seamlessly. And me, I'm very da, da ,da ,da. It's very like that. So I just want to be able to do that. So I think the next big thing is to read my book, but that might come that might not come until a few years, I would say, because I've got a bit of a way to go.
Brianna (TBP)
We see in the documentary that you do talk quite openly and candidly about a really difficult period in your life, where your charity had lost its funding, you were pretty much rock bottom. And I wanted to ask from your perspective, why do you think it's so difficult for men to speak so candidly about mental health issues? Because you mentioned you hadn't cried in front of another man until you were in your 40s?
Jay Blades
45. Yes, I think it's the way that we've been brought up. And it's the way that men don't openly talk about their emotions. And for me talking about it in the documentary, it's almost as if, when I was growing up in Hackney, there was this thing where you didn't really show your vulnerability because you became a victim. And no one wants to be a victim. Whereas, at 45, when I cried in front of another man, it was for me, it was almost like, I started to get reborn again. And I celebrated my victimness if that makes sense. It's almost as if I wore what I was going through on my sleeve, I spoke to people about it, I told people about my dyslexia, I told people about my downfall, that I had fallen down and I couldn't see tomorrow. And it gave me so much strength, owning that rather than hiding it. And that, to me, is what us men should be doing, we should be more open about our feelings more open about our mental health, because there is a lot of pressure on us. Whether that is the old stereotype of the man being the breadwinner, and going out there, and earning the money and being masculine, and etc, etc. There's all of these kind of social constructs that, that we've got, as a man, that normally, I would say, we don't really agree with them, but we just go along with them. And it is hard, because I'd lived 45 years without speaking to people, 45 years, being the tough guy, being the one that's being responsible. And being that kind of community leader for everybody else. So how can you as a community leader, or someone who is responsible for a family say, that look up to you for advice, and so on and so forth? How can you then turn around and say to them, what I need your advice. It's kind of like a role reversal that most men will be scared of doing. So I can understand it. But it does need to change. Because if you look at the suicide rate, for men over the age of 40, that's the biggest killer compared to cancer, testicular cancer, all that kind of stuff. It's suicide. So obviously, men are committing suicide for a particular reason. Either we need to find out those reasons, or we need to be more open as men to make sure that we don't go down that road.
Brianna (TBP)
And that's really relevant to what we're doing with The Black Fund, which you'll know that this half of the year is very focused on mental health. What do you think is needed to help break that down, to create the safer spaces, and to let men let men know that it is okay to be vulnerable? It's not a sign of weakness. It's just a sign of being human.
Jay Blades
I think more men of influence need to come out. More men of influence need to actually speak about how they've been feeling there isn't that many that do it. And I think we need to show our vulnerability. Showing your vulnerability is not a sign of weakness, I believe it's a sign of strength. Because by showing that it just shows that you're able to put it out there. And if someone is going to take the mickey out of your whatever for you being open, then it's the case of it's really that person that has the problem. Not necessarily you. Most people if you expose your vulnerability, they will welcome you with open arms and look to support you in more ways than one and that's what we need to be doing as a society. Hence why the black fund is very dear to me, because it's about supporting the unsupported and making sure that people get a fair chance at what they're trying to achieve. And too often people will look to, quote unquote, celebrities for their guidance. And some celebrities are not really directing people in the right way. They might be directing you to buy the latest makeup, or the latest fashion item, but they're not actually looking at self development, or I call it community development. Which is if you develop one person, you inspire one person, you give them the strength, and you support them in the right way, they then go on and start supporting other people in their community. And it's about community support for me.
Brianna (TBP)
100%. On that note, you mentioned in the documentary and of course, we know from seeing you on the repair shop that carpentry was something that kind of changed the game for you, it offered you something that you didn't need to be able to read to a high level, you had a physical skill. But it wasn't something that was offered to you in school, right?
Jay Blades
Yeah, I didn't get offered in school because I was in the L's. And in the L's, we weren't to be trusted. We couldn't go into the science lab where there was Bunsen burners, we couldn't go into the woodworking because there was saws, and knives, and so on and so forth. I think as the dyslexic, what you do is you find some kind of coping mechanisms for surviving through life. So whether that be avoiding those jobs that you have to read - so doing very small, menial jobs, just working in factories, and what have you. Or you become creative. I remember a friend of mine saying that when I was growing up, I had loads of creative ideas, I was doing loads of different things, fashion shows the whole shebang. And he said, if there was a title that's around now, which wasn't around then, that's what you would have been called. So I would have been called now a creative director. But in the 70s and 80s, there wasn't such a title, there wasn't someone that just came up with these ideas around business around marketing, and etc. So it was almost as if you had to be an academic, we were teaching kids, I think, in the 70s and 80s in a very Victorian way in the sense of we're preparing them for workhouses. And that isn't the case. Even in today's society, I've worked in a number of schools and one of the things I say to the teachers is that we're teaching eight and nine year olds, for jobs that don't even exist. There's jobs that they're going to create because of their understanding of technology. So how can you prepare a kid for that? How can you prepare someone for a future that doesn't really exist? So it's kind of like the creative director, working with your hands being creative, you find a way of coping, to continue your life as normal. If that kind of makes sense. Especially being dyslexic, you tend to find out most I think, the percentage of people in the creative industry, like artists, designers, and all that kind of stuff, I think it's as high as 40% of them are dyslexic.
Brianna (TBP)
That's an amazing statistic. Yeah, I mean, and it does totally make sense. Because if one avenue is just not accessible to you, you're gonna go and find the ones that are.
Jay Blades
Well you're gonna use your strengths that are gonna work for you. And when you speak to dyslexic people, they see things in a completely different way, they're able to come up with ideas of something that they potentially know nothing about. And it's very similar when you watch a documentary. It's like when I speak to my professor, when I went to university in High Wycombe, he was saying to me, you was writing essays and they were very conversational, they were like the way that you speak. They wasn't written in an academic way. You was getting B+'s and you had the reading ability of an 11 year old. And it's hard to understand how you can understand a subject that's so complex, like philosophy, but you're writing essays that you're getting a B+ for and being 11 years old, or having that reading ability of an 11 year old, you had to be able to understand it. And he said, the only way you understood it was when we had the seminars, because you wasn't reading the books, because otherwise you would have been writing very academically, but you was writing as if it was a seminar because in a seminar, you just talk, you have ideas, you shoot about the ideas with other other students, and he said, your essays were some of the best I've ever read, because you spoke exactly how you wrote. So I think us as dyslexics, we have a different way of seeing things and understanding and interpreting it and then regurgitating it out and saying "I think this might be the solution."
Brianna (TBP)
Do you think that it perhaps helps you to see things on a more human level like you can take away sort of the noise that comes with an academic book, there's a lot of noise when you're reading academic novels, that in my opinion, doesn't need to be there. I think it detracts from - because I do social science, and something that I get told a lot is you're being too subjective. You need to take the humanity out of it. And I struggle a lot with that, but it's kind of what's done in academia. Do you think the fact that you've not read any of that, your mind hasn't been shaped by any of that standard, lets you see things like philosophy in a more human way?
Jay Blades
I think there is there is a place for academia, there is a place for the social sciences, I studied philosophy and criminology and the criminology was the study of crime. And what they basically did is went to the east stand and looked at why poor people did crime, from the very early stages of criminology, right up to present. And it was almost as if they didn't recognize that there was other crime outside of the poor parts of town. Sadly, academia is for a certain set of people, it's almost like saying, I want a plumber to become a mechanic, but I don't want him to learn how to do mechanics, you have to learn academia, the thing for me is just that the human element is the person that's studying it. So you studying it, you can bring your own twist onto it. It's whether you have a professor, or doctor, or lecturer that has the foresight to actually see that you are the human that has an interpretation of this very rigid form of education. And sometimes they're not willing to listen to that. I remember speaking to a professor of mine. And I said to him, you have the teaching ability of a peanut.
Brianna (TBP)
(laughs)
Jay Blades
Because what you're supposed to be doing is actually getting me to the level that you're at. I'm a first year trying to understand this, you're speaking all this terminology, no one in this room really gets what you're saying, apart from yourself. And that isn't fair, you should be actually breaking it down to build us up to the same level as you. But what you're trying to do is intimidate us with your intelligence. And I think that's the teaching ability of a peanut.
Brianna (TBP)
And I think you're absolutely correct with that, that's literally the role of a teacher. You've learned it so that you can get it down to basics. That's - if you can't do that, should you be a teacher?
Jay Blades
That's exactly what I thought. Yeah, me and him didn't get on. And that was the first year - I think that was the first, no that was the second month, second month of going to uni. Because I sussed that everybody in this lecture theatre - I saw students just writing like madly, there was smoke coming off their hands. And I was like, you get what he's saying? And they're saying no, no, no, but I'm just writing it down. I'm like, that isn't right. And that happened for a little while. And then it was like, I put my hand, I just said to him, you've got this all wrong mate, it's totally wrong. Because you're not, you're not breaking it down for us. Nobody gets this. Yeah, nobody. It didn't change his style. I understood what I was fighting against. It was fighting against the institution and the establishment. So institution and establishments have been that way for longer than I even care to remember but over 100 years. So someone like me, coming along and challenging it, they don't necessarily like that.
Brianna (TBP)
It's very funny, cos I'm currently having the exact same conversation with the Open University, because they give me my feedback. And it's like it's perfect, but it's just not academic enough. And I'm like, could it potentially be, that academia might need to change a little bit.
Jay Blades
But the problem with that, is it will never change.
Brianna (TBP)
No, you're right. To be fair to them, they're open to the conversation, they want to have the discussion. Because I'd said it's built around one idea of what is correct, which is generally white, generally straight, generally higher upper class, English men. If we're not in that, then how diverse are you actually creating education? Because they're that big on diversity in education at the minute. And I'm like, you can have a room full of black people, brown people, women, gender neutral people, whatever you want. If they've all been trained to think in the same way, is it diverse?
Jay Blades
It isn't. The sad state of affairs is that - and I said this to someone the other day - that what we have, because a lot of people saying institutions are not letting me in, they're not doing this, they're not doing that, so on and so forth. And I say to people, it's almost as if you have to remember, these institutions have been set up by the institutions for the institution. So what you have to do - very similar to The Black Fund - is you need to set up your own. There's no point in going to the institution and saying "Oh, please, can I have some more" a bit like Oliver Twist, and asking them for more in your bowl, and then they don't put enough in your bowl, or you're knocking on a door and they won't let you in? Why do you want to go into that room, you want to go in that room to be accepted to be part of that institution, you have to remember what you then have to adhere to. Whereas I believe the best way to do it is set up your own institution. So once you set up your own institution, you don't really need to get authorization from them because challenging the likes of university challenging the likes of the establishment is kind of for me, it's kind of pointless because they've set up to protect them. And that's why an institution is an institution you as an individual can't change it. But as a collective you can create your own institution. And you don't need to look for them for validation, because you're giving yourself validation with all of the wants that you have within your group that you're sitting up that institution with. So I don't mean to belittle what you're saying, but I kind of understand what the institutions are saying. Yeah. And it's pointless, even arguably, for them, because they have it their way. It's like someone coming to your house. And you said to them, oh, I'm inviting you for dinner. And they say "Yeah, no problem, I'll bring a bottle of wine" and so on and so forth. So they come there and then they turn around and say to you: Why have you cooked that, I'm not going to eat that. I don't want to eat that. And as I don't want to eat that, what are you going to do for me? And you're like, Well, hold on. I've cooked this. I didn't know that you didn't want to eat that, you didn't tell me that? And they're like "Well, you should know. Because I'm me." And it's like well, I can't know unless you tell me. Unless enough of us tell the institutions, this is what you're doing wrong. One, they might not listen to it, they might not make a change. But we should then say, You know what, we know what you're doing wrong. We know what we can do right. Let's set up our own thing. And once we set it up, you'll come knocking on our door, you'll be like, "Hold on, you guys have got it, right, you're working with this group of people, you're actually moving forward, you're creating change, and you're empowering people. I think we've got it wrong, we need to learn from you." Whereas we're always going to the institutions and saying we need to learn from you. And that's the wrong way around.
Brianna (TBP)
Which leads nicely into my next question, which is that with The Black Project, my main goal, long term goal is I want to create cultural centers, like physical centers, that are culturally enriching, and educationally enriching, but with a focus not on Maths, English Science, but on things like carpentry, engineering, painting and decorating etc. So that people that were like you were at school and were basically just written off and told you're not up here so we don't want to waste the energy on you. They can come and there's mentors to teach them and to guide them. And crucially, because I think this is what's missing in a lot of them. We don't just get them to 18 and say, right, good luck, off you go. At 18, there's a pathway into the workforce or into an apprenticeship, one of the two. Was there anything like that around when you were younger? And if not, do you think it would have helped you find your way into something that you loved earlier on?
Jay Blades
There was things like that around, I must say. We had back in the 80s, we had this thing called the YTS scheme, which taught you a number of different trades, they used to give you money at the end of the week, I think it was about 15 or 30 pounds, it was really like it was a low amount. But um, you was learning a skill and I think it was City and Guilds that you could learn carpentry, brick laying, painting and decorating, plumbing, electric, the whole shebang, even mechanics I think they did. I think yeah, that was about. The only problem I would say is that, because there's been a kind of shift away from manufacturing, there's been a shift away from making - this country was built upon people who were worker bees is what I call them, not necessarily academics. But now there is more focus on like the kind of like web designers, things like that. There's people that can work with their hands that have kind of been left to the wayside. So we haven't focused on that. Even the university that I used to go to got rid of one of their like, furniture design courses, and they were renowned for furniture, because there wasn't a need for that it was more pushed towards the, the academia. So there was things like that around. I think it is a really great idea but alongside learning a particular craft or kind of trade, I think people need to learn people and community skills, and how we communicate with each other how we get on with each other. Because just learning a skill doesn't automatically lend yourself to do that. We need to do more joining up. I remember when I used to run a youth club in High Wycombe, and Leigh-anne was part of that. And all of the people that I had in there - black, white, Chinese, Asian and people that were of different sexual orientation. It was a really refreshing melting pot where all these people come together. And they learn about each other's cultures. We even had the police come in and speak to us, we had different community members come in offering their services. So we ran like a barber club, a barber training session there as well, we'd get a barber down from London or Luton and they'd train them up. think there is a need for a center and a load of the centers that offer not only the hard training, but also the soft. How we deal with finances, how we deal with mental health, how we deal with each other's differences, and some of those stereotypes that are in our community that we probably need to change. So for me, it's showing people to be more, more understanding to each other because things are changing big time.
Brianna (TBP)
We need to bring community back. I feel like even when I was little, I'm 25 in April, I feel like when I was little, community was a thing. I could go to my neighbours and they were there and they would support me. Now I feel like that's kind of gone somewhere. And I don't know when it happened or how it happened or why it happened. But I do think it's taking people like me at The Black Project, you guys at The Black Fund - or rather us at The Black Fund to bring this back.
Jay Blades
Yeah, I think that where I got taken away is just through, I call it globalisation and individualisation where people became more selfish, and people wasn't oriented around community. So when I grew up in the 70s, and the 80s, there was a big community emphasis. It was like, people would organize like a coach trip for all of the kids and families to go to the seaside, someone will cook the chicken, someone would have the coleslaw, someone would have the rice, someone would have the juice, someone would have that. It was just absolutely beautiful. I don't see many of those, there probably are things like that going on nowadays, but I don't see that happening as much. Community is one of the most, I would say, underrepresented, but one of the most beautiful things that you can have in your life. It's one of those developments that it can make you so rich, in just being able to go out there with this support and just with the knowledge that you've got with the community that has given it to you. So it's very, yeah, that's why I've always been in shows that are about community, I've been doing things that are by community. That's the only way forward. For me. That's the only people that have helped me, when I fell down six years ago, hit rock bottom, the community brought me back up. And they actually got me to where I am. So now six years later, I've got a couple of shows on the BBC that are very successful just on a documentary that's also successful. I think it peaked at about 3.7 million people watched it. There was so many people that are influenced by it. That is kind of like, wow. And you got to think all of that has come to me because I showed my vulnerability. I exposed how weak I was. I spoke to people and said I need help. And they gave me help and look where they've put me.
Brianna (TBP)
It's beautiful thing. The power of people is the most beautiful thing on this planet. And if we harness that power, my goodness, can you even imagine? So talking about achieving those things Let's talk about The Black Fund. How did you get involved with it?
Jay Blades
The Black Fund, I mentored Leigh-anne when she was quite young. She used to be in a a choir and also used to come to my youth club back in the day when I was in High Wycombe. And I've always just stayed in contact with her, given her positive messages, because obviously, when you are someone who is from, let's say, the ends, and then you become famous, there are some people that don't necessarily like what you are achieving, and what have you. So always been that kind of support, someone for her to lean on whenever she's ready. So when she started speaking about this documentary that she was doing, just talking about the industry and the difficulties that she faced in the industry, I then said to her that you need to do something with your reach, yourself and your fiance should be doing something to actually give back. And she was all up for that anyway, that's something that's dear to her heart. So The Black Fund, they asked me to be a trustee. And I was like, wow, yeah, that's absolutely fine. So I was quite honored to be a trustee, and we're making a difference. And that's the thing. You got to be part of something that's making a difference. And Leigh-anne, her sister (Sairah) and Andre are people that - how can I explain it - they put their money where their mouth is, basically. If they say they're going to do something they're going to do it. They don't necessarily listen too much to all of the people saying things to them and having a go. It's just bosh, this is what I'm achieving. So I might hear people talking about colourism I might hear people saying about some celebrities don't do anything. And I always say to them: check out the celebrity before you start talking about them. Because some people do some really great things but you just don't know about it because you've listened to the Chinese whispers. So The Black Fund for me is is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Brianna (TBP)
It is phenomenal. I've been getting filled in on some of the stuff that you've been doing before I came on board and some of the charities that you guys have supported are doing the most extraordinary things. And I saw one earlier called Haven worked with women going through domestic abuse and mental abuse and all this kind of stuff. And they're predominantly from Black, Asian and ethnic minority backgrounds. And these are the charities that are not, they're not getting big social media attention. They're not getting huge amounts of funding. But what they are doing with what they've got, has blown my mind. And I can't wait. It's groundbreaking, I can't wait to shine a light on it on the platform and let people see what those ones that you did give funding to in the last round, have done with that, because what I've seen is absolutely amazing.
Jay Blades
It's amazing. The thing about it, I think the biggest thing is just showing that, celebrating those people that are achieving a lot with so little. So imagine if they had a lot, what they could be achieving. And that's the thing that we try to celebrate. And that's the thing that we want people to understand that these charities, they're not like the charities that will have an advert on TV because they can't afford it. But on the ground, they are so vital to so many people's lives. It's like, wow, and how long have they been doing this? How much money have they had? Like, who have they reached out to? And hold on, you gave them a bit more and that's what they're doing now with it? Wow. So it shows what's possible. That's why I would always say you ain't really got to look to the institutions, because there's a lot of people out there in our community who actually - little institutions within themselves, they just need that exposure or that spotlight to say look at this person, look what they're doing.
Brianna (TBP)
Couldn't agree more. And so coming to the end of the questions that I've got drafted. And one of the last ones is - the world is quite heavy at the minute. It has been for a long time, but very much the last two years. Where in all of that do you go to to find joy.
Jay Blades
I go to my record player. The world is very, very heavy, I deal with some heavy subjects when I'm filming, I mentor a few people outside of filming, so there's a lot of stuff going on. And the only joy that I kind of find is with my music. I can just really go into that. The other day, I danced for like five hours straight. I was just playing my music. And just like in the room, just dancing. Imagine that, five hours straight. I didn't even know I was dancing for five hours. The missus said to me, I think we've got to go to Mum's and get some Saturday soup. I'm like, is it that time already? She's like, yeah, we've got to go. She's like, Jay you've been dancing for five hours, you dances with me for two, and then you was on your own for three? Like, come on, we've got to go. So that's where I find my joy.
Brianna (TBP)
What was your first ever record that you bought yourself?
Jay Blades
Wow, first ever record was probably - I think it might have been Police and Thieves (by Junior Murvin) Or it might have been Dennis - I think it might have been Dennis Brown The Promised Land, which I had in the documentary as well. It's one of those tunes that just uplifts you, especially growing up in the 70s and 80s. It was all about the Rasta movement and togetherness, we can actually get rid of this kind of persecution that we're facing on a daily basis. So yeah, that song is quite dear to me.
Brianna (TBP)
The very last question I've got is - and I ask everyone that does an In Conversation because I'm big into exploring identity. What does being black mean to you?
Jay Blades
Wow, what does being Black mean to me? That's a really good question. No one's ever asked me that. There's so many things I could say, but I'm trying to put it into a nutshell. Being black means to me to be individual, unique special, beautiful, courageous, brave. And the knowledge for me, or the knowing. The knowing that I'm here because of so many other people who had to put up with so much. It's like I have a responsibility to my community. And my community is not the community that is only here. It's the community that was here before me and a community that is not here yet. So that's what being black for me is all about.
Brianna (TBP)
That's my favorite question that I ask because everyone has such a different answer. And every single one is beautiful. There's never been an answer that's not hit, it's always gorgeous.
Jay Blades
So you said The Black Fund and then The Black Project, what's TBP?
Brianna (TBP)
Very, very similar to The Black Fund, the difference is I have no money. So it was basically that's why Sairah was so keen for me to come on board because she'd seen everything that I was doing. And it stands for - because I have black in capitals - black life, arts, culture and knowledge. And I wanted to create a much more positive platform because I saw there was loads that were like, everyday racism or so you want to talk about racism, let's talk about racism. And I'm like, that's important. I get that it's important. But it's not everything. And if that's what we're talking about, are we really changing anything? If all we're talking about is trauma, death, negativity? How much are we changing? And kind of like we were saying earlier about not wanting to just complain, but wanting to do something? I just did it. After George Floyd died, I just got angry that it took a death again, for people to give a shit basically. So yeah, I just made it impulsively and it kind of blew up a little bit.
Jay Blades
Okay, that's cool. That's good to know. I think the George Floyd situation. Sorry, that's belittling it, the George Floyd murder, actually got the world to wake up. But there are a number of incidences that have happened in this country, I think, to date, there has been I think the statistic is about 109 people have been killed by the hands of the police in this country, and no one has been brought to justice for any of those crimes. And it's almost as if we've been suffering in silence. And we've been dealing with stuff in silence. But I'm a great believer, instead of talking about what's been happening, we really need to focus on the future. And a lot of people are not necessarily focused on the future, which is quite sad for me. Because there are people that are going to come who are not here yet, and they're going to suffer the same things, if we don't start to put things in place for them. Same thing what us as a whole global society are doing with regards to the Eco damage that we're doing to the world. So we have to make sure that we recycle, we eat more vegetables, etc, etc. We're taking a global responsibility towards that. But sometimes I don't think that we take a global responsibility in what we're doing for our future as black people. And that is what saddens me sometimes.
Brianna (TBP)
100% agree, my dad feels it very strongly too. He's Nigerian, and he runs his, his own company - he's a web developer. And we've spoken about pan-africanism, and he very strongly feels - he's like, I could quite easily only employ black people from Britain, or I could only employ black people from America that have been to Oxford, or MIT or Harvard. But he's like but what does that do for our black brothers and sisters that are in Nigeria, or in Ghana in Uganda, and want to better their own countries, want to invest there, want those opportunities there?
Jay Blades
Right? Good. it's a different way of looking at things. But we need to really, we really need to look at the future, because we're still living in a society that doesn't see us as kind of equal. And it's really, really sad. But as I said, there's a, there's a number of us who have a position of power, and not many of us are taking that responsibility and saying right, I'm going to use that position of power to actually gain some knowledge on what we can do for our future, and do it collectively. Because collectively, we can be very, very powerful, all together very, very powerful, it's the same like the institutions, same like all of the institutions, they're very powerful.
Brianna (TBP)
And they're powerful, because they know the power of that togetherness. Once we as black people know that power. We don't need the institutions, it's like you say, we don't need to be asking for seat at that table. The future needs to be us going, right, how do we build our own table? What do we want that table to look like?
Jay Blades
Exactly, yeah, build our table, then you have to build your own room, and then you build your own floor and then you build your own house. Just like cool, happy days. It can be done. There's a number of us now that can actually come together and make a real significant change. We just need to see and understand the combined strength of our power together. And the institutions have shown us that. They've shown us the way that they've treated us in the past with regards to the police, the way they treated us with housing, the way that they've treated us with health, etc, etc. They've shown us how powerful the institutions are. You should always be learning from people. It's the same as when those people were racist to me in school. One thing they taught me, which I'm really grateful for, is they taught me how not to treat people. They treated me a particular way because of the colour of my skin. That's how you should never treat someone, you should never reject someone, or bully or mimic or take the mickey out someone because of something they have no control over. And that could be to do with sexuality, that could be to do with speech, or could be to do with a disability. You should never do that. Simple. But they taught me a big lesson. And I'm very grateful for that. I would shake their hand if I saw them today, I would say thank you, because what you've done has gotten me to where I am now. Because I've done community work, I've worked in homeless centers, I worked all over the place. And it's, it's been beneficial, especially for me.
Brianna (TBP)
What would you say out of all of them was the most rewarding thing that you've done?
Jay Blades
Oh, the most rewarding thing that I've done, I haven't done it yet. I'm still working on it. Basically, I've got a lot of work to do. The society is kind of messed up. And my role, my responsibility, I believe, is to influence people I'm never going to meet. So I have to keep on going. The best time to ask me that question is about an hour before I'm going to die.
Brianna (TBP)
Okay, I'll make a note of that!
Jay Blades
Yeah, I'll call you up on that. Because basically, I ain't done. I ain't done. There's a lot more I've got to do, if I've been given an opportunity to stay alive. So six years ago, I wasn't gonna be here. So if I'm here, I'm here for a reason. And that reason is to make the world a better place, or leave some crumbs to show people this is what you should be doing. I ain't even achieved it yet. It's coming. Watch this space.
Brianna (TBP)
Well, that is an exciting note to end on!
Jay Blades
Thank you. That was nice. Thank you for that.
Brianna (TBP)
Oh, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope it didn't feel too much like work.
Jay Blades
No, no, no, nothing is like work. And even work that I do doesn't feel like work, I enjoy everything. Because I'm grateful for every day, every minute that I'm on this earth. Every minute.
Brianna (TBP)
I feel like everyone needs someone like you in their life, just to remind us to be grateful.
Jay Blades
You gotta be grateful. And luckily for me, most people would say, and I don't mind if they would say this, but because I wasn't going to be here six years ago, that wakes you up to then realising "you know what, I am here, and I'm here for a reason." And then you got to think six years ago, I never anticipated I was gonna be on TV, and never anticipate I was gonna have one of the most successful factual shows that's on BBC One. And then worldwide, it's sold all over the world, people in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, whole of Europe, America watched us. Then to have my own production company, then to have my own furniture company, then to be part of The Black Fund that is supporting charities that are dear to my heart, then to do a documentary that says to people, if I can do it, you can do it. And then it reaches out to a number of people that I could never reach. I could never reach 3.7 million people, it's impossible for me to go and speak to every individual and let them know something. So if all of that is happening in the space of six years, maximum, what's gonna happen in 12 years, and what's gonna happen in 20 years time, imagine the influence, the reach. The kind of responsibility that has, that you can achieve all of that in six years. So imagine the rest of it coming, like what, are you for real?
Brianna (TBP)
And you know what I want people to take from this as well, is, I think there's a lot of pressure on people from very young, to achieve everything by a certain age. And they set this milestone, if you're 25, and you haven't done XYZ, then you failed. If you're 30 and you haven't done it, you failed.
Jay Blades
I totally agree.
Brianna (TBP)
But you were, were you 46 when when all of this started for you?
Jay Blades
Yeah, 46. 46. 45. I fell down and then 46 everything started happening.
Brianna (TBP)
So to anyone that reads this or listens to this or in any way interact with this. There's no deadline on starting your life. There's no cut off point.
Jay Blades
I totally agree with that. I tell you why a lot of young people believe they're a failure, or believe that it has to happen instantly like that is because of social media. Social media tells you you can get stuff instantly, you can live that glamorous lifestyle. You could be on holiday in Dubai, you could be anywhere in the world. You can have abs to die for that you can wash your clothes on because they are that tough. You can have the bum to die for. You can have the boyfriend, the car, the girlfriend, new whatever. You can live this beautiful life instantly. The reality is no, it doesn't happen. That's the reality for maybe 1% of the population that might happen. But apart from that it isn't going to happen. Things take time. And you need to allow yourself to grow into whatever will become. I remember someone asked me the other day saying to me, "Oh, do you have a vision or a mood board? What's on your vision, a mood board." I said, I don't have one. I said, I see myself as like a dandelion. Because you know, you have dandelions in the summer, they start floating around, the wind blows them, and then they go somewhere, and they pollinate the grass, and then they're off again. That's exactly the way I see myself. I'm like a dandelion just floating. I do strategise with regards to my business and try to market it in the right way and stuff. But with regards to my life, things just happened for me. And as they happen, they happen at the right time, the right reason. And then there was an effect - as long as my, what's the word? As long as my intention's are pure whilst I'm in that. So my intention of being in TV is not to become famous, not to earn loads of money, not to get the big flash car. It's basically to influence people I'm never going to meet. To show people like me, when I was watching TV, I would only see black people related to sport, music or comedy. I would never see black people related to craft, never see black people related to gardening, you never see black people relate to these things that show intelligence. Now we have the main presenter on mastermind is a black guy. You have a guy like me doing the repair shop and I'm supposed to be the boss. So here's a black guy who speaks like me, who's running like, the majority of the experts we've got are white middle England. So it's kinda like things are changing. But there has to be more of a change. And we have to start coming out of that mold where we think we're keeping it real. By doing certain activities, we have to break that mold. That's what we have to do. So um, yeah, that's why I'm here. You've got you've got to make a change, man, if you're not making a change, move out the way, man because I'm, I'm here to make a change. I ain't got time for people who ain't making no change. I wouldn't waste my time with them.
Brianna (TBP)
No, I 100% agree. 100% agree. And it is really refreshing. You know, I think there are people that maybe a few years ago wouldn't have spoken up about anything who are seeing people like Leigh-anne coming out and making her documentary and they're going, "Oh, well, if you can do it, and then get cast in a movie and now sign with Warner Music, then it won't impact my career, maybe I can speak up too" I think it is so important.
Jay Blades
It should never impact anybody's career, because it's telling her truth is her truth. But then we live in a culture at the moment where it's called cancel culture, you do have to be mindful of what you're saying. Because it can just cancel you, bam, like that. But as I said, if your intentions are pure, if your heart is pure, and you have a valid reason for doing something, the truth will shine through, and your honesty will shine through. So her documentary was just beautiful, absolutely beautiful. Yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
It reminds me of something my nan always says, and if there's one thing I will remember her saying, it's "What's for you doesn't pass you."And if you have pure intention, if you go into things with love, what is for you, will not pass you.
Jay Blades
See, I tell you what, I know you said this is the end of the conversation and I'd love to leave it on what your nan said. What's for you won't pass you. That's beautiful. Simple. Thank you.
Brianna (TBP)
Thank you!
Jay’s documentary is available now on BBC iPlayer, and is linked at the start of this chat. You can follow him on instagram here, and follow The Black Fund too.