In Conversation With: Darren Raymond
In December 2021, I was lucky enough to be invited to a press night showing of Juliet and Romeo, a modern day retelling of the Shakespeare classic with a twist. It was set in pandemic London, and all of Romeo and Juliet’s lines were swapped around. It was some of the best theatre I had ever seen. It was put on by Intermission Youth Theatre, and the mastermind behind it was Darren Raymond.
He’s gone from a turbulent youth that saw him spending time in prison, to winning a National Diversity Award in his 13th year of running Intermission Youth Theatre, and working alongside names like Sir Mark Rylance and Naomie Harris.
Earlier this month, I sat down with him for a chat about life, art, Shakespeare, and what it means to be black.
Brianna (TBP)
Hey, good to see you
Darren Raymond
Hi, yeah how are you? Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but the end of last year was a bit of a mad one.
Brianna (TBP)
All good man! You were busy, and you won a National Diversity Award too yeah?
Darren Raymond
Yeah I did, that was cool. I hadn't heard of them before it but yeah. You knew about them?
Brianna (TBP)
No actually! An organisation I know local to me was nominated so I heard about it but previous to that I didn't know about them.
Darren Raymond
And it was their anniversary year, they've been going 10 years.
Brianna (TBP)
How did it come about, is it someone in their organisation nominates you, or was it supporters of IYT (Intermission Youth Theatre) that nominate you?
Darren Raymond
Yeah so it's supporters of IYT, which is nice.
Brianna (TBP)
Wicked. Definitely going to get into IYT and what it's all about, but I want to start with growing up. Where did that happen for you and what was it like?
Darren Raymond
You taking me all the way back there! Okay. I grew up in Hackney, and it was alright. It was me and my mum, and she worked hard to give me you know, a good outcome. She worked really hard to make sure that I had, you know, a good upbringing. Obviously, there was a lot of stuff we went without, but you know, what you don't know you don't miss. So she was really good in terms of, you know, kind of providing a sanctuary, which was our home, a safe place to be where, you know, we had a good relationship. But then you got the - you got the outside world and outside the house. And Hackney was a place, particularly when I was growing up, which was, there wasn't really a lot going on, like meaningful engagement. So, you know, for young people to get involved in, or there wasn't a lot of positive role models around. So it was very easy to kind of get sucked into state living, which was, you know, kind of, yeah, idle kids with nothing to do getting involved in crime or, you know, kind of just stuff that was not conducive for or productive for anybody's future. So, yes, I struggled with that. I went to education outside of Hackney, I went to Westminster City School. And that was because my mum wanted to send me outside of the borough, because she felt that I would have some more of a chance of kind of, you know, I suppose, progressing in life. Because the Hackney schools weren't very good. But there was something wrong with that. I don't think that was, you know, she was aware of that. But kind of moving away from the borough and going to this school. And Westminister was a state school as well. And you had a lot of young people come in from South London, so it wasn't any better than schools in Hackney, to be honest with you. But just in terms of that area, Westminster and what we felt that represented, you know, it's kind of like assimilating whiteness, because you know that Westminster is the city and where people go to work. So the pictures that I was seeing coming from Hackney traveling on the Victorian line into Westminster coming off the train? I'm like "Hold on a minute, what's going on here?" Yeah. So instead of working in the way my mum hoped it would, it had the opposite effect, it kind of built more resentment in me, I saw the injustice of it in terms of how we live. And yeah, and I suppose that propelled me to kind of take matters into my own hands even more. And I felt from a young age that I needed to kind of do something to change our situation, because there was no man in the house. And I, you know, coming from a Caribbean household, you know, those values that are placed upon you in terms of being a man and that narrative kind of weighed heavy on me, and I just felt it was up to me to change our circumstances. And the only way I knew how - it wasn't the only way, but I suppose the easiest option for me at that time looking back. Because I knew other ways. So it'd be wrong to say that it was the only way I knew. But yeah, just the quickest way was to get involved in, you know, what everybody else was doing on the estate and you made some wrong choices and derailed in my late teens, got involved in stuff I shouldn't have got involved in. So my child was with turbulent in that respect.
Brianna (TBP)
What was your earliest memories at that time of storytelling? Because obviously, that's become very important in you changing that path for people.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I love that question. What. This is why you are who you are. Some of the best questions I've had, you know? That's a lovely question. It's a beautiful question. And one of my earliest memories of storytelling is going to my Nan's house on a Sunday right, so my Nan lived in Whitechapel, and every Sunday, it was a thing where we had to go to her house and she would make Sunday dinner for the whole family. So my uncles and cousins and everybody would be at my Nan's on a Sunday. And like the kids would play, maybe on the balcony, on the landing, or downstairs or whatever, in the sitting room and the adults would be in the kitchen, playing dominoes. And I was always drawn to the kitchen. From a young kid I never wanted to go and play, I wanted to sit with the adults around a domino table. I was often told to, you know, that I was in the way or there weren't enough seats so I couldn't. But I always wanted to go in there, and the reason why I wanted to be in there was because the stories they told, were incredible. Like all my family are kind of you know, Windrush generation so they were coming over from the West Indies. My Nan came and she had seven children and her eldest, who just passed away recently, he came over and then he brought my mom over and her brother. Anyways, and they would tell all these stories about when they first came to England, what life was like in the Caribbean, you know, contributing to this country, all kind of stuff. And their stories are always hilarious, like, just belly laughter rolling. And I was just fascinated by the stories that went on round the domino table. And that was my early memories of storytelling. And actually, I know for sure that's what inspired me to become a writer 100%. And those moments are really kind of apparent in how I write as well.
Brianna (TBP)
You can definitely sense - I've only seen Juliet and Romeo - but you can sense very much that community. And that sense of family really comes across very strongly in what you've done in terms of the play, but also in terms of when we sat at the end, and we listened to the kids talk about their experience at IYT, you've definitely almost replicated that kitchen.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, maybe we should change it to the kitchen, change the name to Kitchen Youth Theatre. And it's funny you say that, because at Intermission, a lot of what happens, like a lot of the relationship buildings, those conversation take place in the kitchen. Yeah, 100%. But we don't have our own space at the moment. So we're in an interim space. And we don't have the luxury of that facility, like a kitchen where young people can come and cook and stuff, but where we were set up in St Xavier's church, where we were founded in 2008. For 13 years we were in that space and there was a kitchen. And that's where I can tell you a lot of stories took place a lot of kind of growth, development, arguments, they'd come in here and we'd cook together, you know, people will sit on the counters and talk and yeah. So the kitchen, that was where it happened, man.
Brianna (TBP)
That's such a thing I think in most families, why do you think that is? Why do you think food and the kitchen is such a heart of humanity?
Darren Raymond
Yeah, I don't know. I think food is fellowship. I mean, that, for me food has been fellowship. It's something that we all need for survival. So I think there's obviously something very universal about eating, you know, because we have to do it to live. And I just think it nourishes us, it sustains us. There's something about food, how we prepare food as well, I think is really important. Like, you know, it's something that I mean, you can do it by yourself. But it's something where if you're in the kitchen, and everybody's helping out, there's something very theatrical about it. You know, it is everybody can play a part, everybody has a role to play, and you don't know how it's gonna turn out, you know, in terms of what your contribution to it, but you're very proud of your contribution, hopefully. And when you sit down and you experience whatever that is at the end, it's a wonderful thing, because you discover, you discover as well, you know, through the taste of it through, you know, the conversations around the table. So yeah, I think it's got a lot of similarities to kind of putting on a production, cooking a meal, with friends or family or, you know, just a group of people.
Brianna (TBP)
So let's talk a little bit about IYT, how it began, how you got involved with it. And for people who don't know, before you were involved in the arts and the theater, you did end up in prison. And as a result of what you were saying earlier circumstances, taking what was probably the most accessible route for you to make things better at home, or what you thought would make things better at home. Do you think had something like IYT been around when you were a kid, do you think you would have been drawn down the path that you ended up going down?
Darren Raymond
I don't know. It's hard to kind of look back and say what could haved changed the course of somebody's life, particularly my own. I felt it would have if there was that option available to me. I don't know. Because the thing with me growing up is that there was nobody who recognized that I had an interest. I didn't have an interest. I didn't even know I had an interest. But there was nobody that recognized that I had a talent or a gift for the arts. And I think that comes back to education. You know, because I must have been showing signs of something in school, maybe in terms of creative writing or even in terms of my personality in the classroom and stuff like that. For somebody to say hold on a minute, have you ever thought about this? Have you looked at this? So actually, I could probably answer that question. Because Intermission Youth Theatre does do work in communities, we go into schools, we go into pupil referalunits and prisons to deliver our work. And if intermission had come into education when I was in school, and there was people like me, when I say like me, those that are ethnically diverse coming in and leading workshops and having conversations with us as young people, I would definitely - my ears would have definitely pricked up and I'd have been like oh yeah, I can see myself doing this because I can see somebody like me doing it. And I like that and have you know, and I can, I can really vibe with that. So yeah, I think if it was around and it had somehow collided with my life, then probably there would have been a different course that I would have taken.
Brianna (TBP)
So how did you actually end up involved with IYT? How did that begin for you?
Darren Raymond
That's a long story. How long is this interview?
Brianna (TBP)
How long do you want it to be?
Darren Raymond
That is a long one boi. So obviously you know my background. So when I went away for that sentence, it was my longest sentence. So my cellmate actually, I grew up with and how we became cellmates is another story but yeah, we were on association, which is basically time out of your cell to have a shower, make a phone call, and do that kind of stuff. And he came back after association and said, he's put our names down for a drama class, and I'm like, "Okay. Why?" And he said you know, to get us out of this, get us out to do something different. And I was like, alright, cool. It wasn't an immediate thing. I think it was starting in a few weeks or whatever. So whatever, then that few weeks obviously came along, and then we've got a knock on the cell door saying that we have to go to drama. We're both like, "Come on, man. That's long - we don't want to do that now." The idea of putting your name down was alright but actually going? Nah nah nah, it's long. But our names are down so it's either we go, do you know what I mean, or we don't go, and we went. And once you go, that's it, you're there. You can't come back until the class is finished, we've gone down. And there's these actors from the outside, about six or seven professional actors from the outside and this really kind of - I don't know how to describe it, what's the best way to describe - flamboyant drama teacher kind of leading the session. And I was like, oh my gosh, man, what have I bloody put myself in for. But I'm just sitting there, I'm not getting involved. But I'm a strong believer that you can become a product of your environment, which happened to me when I was a kid growing up in East London. And this was a different environment that we was in and we couldn't leave, it was a two hour workshop. And, you know, after about 45 minutes or so everybody's up and enjoying it and doing their thing. And I'm sitting there thinking "Nah I'm not doing this", but then, you know, I'm the one that is feeling awkward now, because everybody's happy, and they're enjoying themselves. You know, I became a product of that environment. So I said alright cool, and I joined in, and got involved and had a lot of fun. We were doing games and stuff like that. And it was cool. And I really enjoyed it. And then at the end, this flamboyant drama teacher, when was getting back to our cells, he's kind of stopped me at the door and said, "You know what, you're really good. And I hope you come back." Whether he meant it or not, who knows? But that word of encouragement really stuck with me. And I went back to the cell and me and my bredren we're talking about that class. And we did a little bit of Shakespeare in there as well, and was talking about that and I'm like rah. It was the first time that I'd been inside and felt liberated. You know, it was the first time I had laughed really like that in, you know, in that way, and it was just a good feeling and I wanted to replicate it. So I carried on going back, we both did. So to cut long story short- to cut it really short, because it could go on for a very, very long time - I've come out, and then I've had this opportunity to take it further. Somebody offered me a tour, to audition for a Shakespeare tour doing Othello and I went up for it, I got the part, got the lead. We went on the UK national tour and I'm playing Othello and yeah, it was cool. Oh, I missed a part. So when I was in behind the door, I represented prison at the time on poetry and the arts. So they let me out on temporary release to do this conference, reciting poetry. And it was like, I think it was clergymen there and other people from other organisations. And after we did it, I had a conversation with somebody. I was just talking, they were interested in who I was as a person, had a conversation, didn't think anything of it, and went back. Anyway, I come out and I've done this tour, where we were performing, sorry, where we were rehearsing was St Xavier's church in Knightsbridge, because it was a theatre church and it kind of lent a space to organisations if they wanted to use it. And I knew nothing about it. But I knew that's where rehearsals are. So I turned up there for rehearsals. And when I turned up, I was met at the door by this guy that I was talking to when I was doing the, the conference and poetry for the prison. And he recognized me straightaway and the welcome was lovely, and, you know, he introduced me to his wife. So he was the vicar of the church and he introduced me to his wife, Janine. And, yeah, that was cool. And we rehearse there for two weeks. And then we went on tour.
To cut another long story short, after a few months after touring I went back to St Xavier's church to visit them, because they were really nice to me, so I went just to say thank you and stuff like that. And then Rob, me and Rob got talking. And he was very interested in me as a person. Then he started to mentor me as an actor, writer and a director, because he was an actor before we became a priest, for 15 years, he was an actor. And he was really interested in kind of working with, you know, in developing people that maybe didn't have the opportunities. And that relationship went on for about a year and a half, and then Rob said "Look I've always wanted to set up my own professional theatre company. But I don't have the time, because I've got to run the church and other things. How would you feel about doing it?" And that was 2006 he asked me that question. And I said, Yes, sure. And in 2006, I became the artistic director of Intermission Theatre, which was a professional theatre company. And we did work for two years. And it was great. And then in 2008, I set up Intermission Youth Theatre. That was a really long story. But that's not even. I mean, that's the short version.That's the short version. I can't tell it any shorter than that. But yeah, in a nutshell. You know, it's really, when I think back kind of in terms of who I was, and who I am now, and how I became this and how I started doing this work that I'm doing, it's just it's insane. Really the story, there's so many kinds of moments that are unexplainable. You know, there's there's something different happening, I think, and that's why I felt I was destined to end up here. Some of the story just doesn't even make sense. People listen to it and they're like "You're telling me - like, this is a Hollywood story. You're pitching a film to me." And I'm like, nah, this is it. That's exactly how it went.
Brianna (TBP)
Yes, some things are just fated to happen. Like the chances of you A. Getting released to go and do the poetry stuff, B. that he was there, and then C. that you met him again, when you came out? Like all of those things, you wouldn't be sat here without each of those moments.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, exactly.
Brianna (TBP)
That's amazing. So you've been doing this now then, this will be 14 years, then this year since you guys have been doing it?
Darren Raymond
Yeah, the Youth Theatre.
Brianna (TBP)
So last year, I'm sure you probably are aware yourself was the worst year on record for teenage murders in London. Obviously, you at IYT are doing your bit to try and change that. How have you seen it change the lives of the young people that you're working with?
Darren Raymond
I've seen it. I've seen it firsthand man. And you know, like over the 13 years that I've been doing this work now I've seen like over 100 young people come through the program. And I've seen the majority, if not all of those lives change in some way. Like it's very hard to do, to speak about this work and do it justice. It's something that you need to see and be a part of. But you know, I mean, when I mentioned about that, that time when I was leaving the workshop, and the drama teacher said you know you're really cool, really good and I hope you come back, like Intermission offers and gives that care, love and support and encouragement on a 24 hour, seven day a week basis. And when you have that around you when you have positive people around you and you have people that have love for you, and care for you, and are really concerned about your future you know, and having a listening ear as well. Which I think is more important rather than kind of speaking, what we do at Intermission with young people is we listen a lot. You know, because there's this whole thing about giving young people a voice but I think we have to start giving adults ears. And that's what Intermission is based on, I think because of that we're very, we're in a good place to respond to the needs of young people, and having an understanding of perhaps where they're at and why they find themselves in these situations that can be detrimental to them, you know, mentally and physically, if we're talking about knife crime. I won't go into detail, but we've had young people that are involved in you know, in this these kinds of things, and are now going into schools with us and leading workshops, anti crime workshops. We're about to go into one on Monday 14th up in Cumbria, and two of the young people are coming up to lead that workshop with us, you know, they're leading a workshop on anti crime and could tell you stories about knife crime in their own lives. So it's definitely having an impact, definitely changing. And, you know, if you change one person, for me that's enough. But as I said, this work, I've been doing it for 13 years and it has been consistently changing the lives of young people, and they will probably speak and speak about it better than I can, because it's their stories. But, you know, to be a witness of that is, I feel very privileged. You know, and of course, I can speak from my own experience as well, even though I wasn't part of the Youth Theatre because I created the Youth Theatre, I was part of something that initiated the Youth Theatre, which Rob and his wife Janine kind of birthed in that space. And it definitely changed my life.
Brianna (TBP)
So what would you say having, like you say, listened to these young people, given them their voice and taken it on board, what is it that you're hearing from them that they feel needs to change? Or what are the circumstances that have them in a situation where they feel like there's nowhere to go, there's no opportunities for them - what is it that they're saying? What do the young people want?
Darren Raymond
This is another good question, man. I don't have the answer to that. Conversations that I do have with them, or kind of listening to them and seeing what's going on, there's a lot of, I suppose expectation, on youth from parents or guardians. And then we keep going up the chain to kind of education and authority. And then we go up further and there's government, you know, like, everybody has an idea about how our youth should be, without really understanding what our youth are going through. Obviously, right now we're going through a transition in this world, which none of us have really experienced before. You know, we look at the global pandemic, the global racial movement, there's a lot of uncertainty and stuff like that. And it means that a lot of people are, you know, fragile, mentally. And what I'm seeing - this will answer some of your question , but not all of it, because I've obviously been doing this work for 13 years. But quite recently, what I'm hearing from young people, and seeing is that actually like, everybody talks about what the world used to be, and how the world used to be, and how, you know, things, things have changed. And people were kind of afraid of change, whatever. And, yes, every generation changes, but - and I don't know, but I would imagine - that this is, we've never seen a change such as this on this kind of stratosphere. And if we start with technology, which has been changing the world probably for the last 15, maybe 20 years now, gradually and accelerating at a rate which is just unbelievable. This young generation, that's their reality. And I don't really understand it as much as they do, because I've lived without technology. you know, in that in that way. They haven't. So to try and kind of expect them, for me to expect young people to know, to exist in my reality, or to even understand my reality? It's just just going to become this constant kind of friction, constant, you know, banging of heads. So there's that. I think there's a state of the world which is, you know, which is happening, I think there's a lot of resentment, a lot of uncertainty. We work predominantly with those from the ethnic, diverse communities. Racism is systemic, you know, systematic racism is a massive thing. They don't, they're not often able to articulate how that makes them feel or why they respond in certain ways. But during this global racial movement, I've seen a lot of damage in terms of young people, because they've just started to maybe realise that they don't know their identity. They don't really, they don't know who they are. They don't know their place, particularly in this country, let alone in the greater scheme of things. So I don't think that answers your question. And I don't have the answer. So I've recently been trying to give you a response. There's a lot going on, a lot of things that young people talk about. But to put your finger on one, you can't, there's a lot.
Brianna (TBP)
How much do you think what you're hearing from them is different to what your generation was struggling with when you were growing up? Has it changed all that much?
Darren Raymond
I have this conversation with my colleague a lot, he will always say to me, "Nah D, we're not like that, these lot are different, they've changed" and I'm like, no they haven't. It's just a different time. I don't think it's changed, I think the world's changed as I spoke about earlier, but I think us as people, we don't seem to, I think we experienced the same things, we go through the same things o this cycle. We, you know, kind of, we call it year after year, decade after decade, century after century, human beings experience the same things, we might just experienced it in different ways. But we're experiencing the same things, in terms of you know, whatever it is love, or betrayal or envy or greed or temptation, all these things is, it's the human condition, it's what we go through. Which is why I think Shakespeare works so well for us as a vehicle in terms of, you know, kind of the work that we do, because he explores that, he explores the human condition in a way that I think works really well. I'm sure there's other writers that maybe do it better. But for now, I think, for me, Shakespeare is somebody who has characters that we can all recognise and see ourselves in and learn something about ourselves in the world we live in. But for me, the reason why I get on so well with young people, in particular the young people I work with is because I feel our experiences are quite similar. Just a different time. Yeah. And I just have a different way of kind of maybe looking at something to what they would. But the essence of it. What we're actually feeling, that human emotion that we're going through. I think we can relate to. Yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
I agree. 100% agree. I was interested to hear your take on it. Because in my opinion, I don't think things have changed that much in terms of like, day to day experiences. I don't think they've changed that much. There's different stresses, like there's a lot going on, telling us we got eight years to fix climate change or the world might not be inhabitable. That's a different stress. Day to day experiences, like on the street, in schools, in the workplace, I don't think it's changed that much.
Darren Raymond
Yeah Nana wouldn't be happy to hear us say that. I've got an ally now which is good.
Brianna (TBP)
You mentioned Shakespeare there. And I wanted to talk a little bit later about that, but may as well do it now. I read that you said that when you were at school, you hated Shakespeare and you rediscovered him during that drama program in prison. Could you maybe speak a little bit about why you think standard education, or mainstream education is failing to engage young people in - like you say - a writer who writes stories that are very relatable, and as we saw in Juliet and Romeo can very easily be translated to 2021 England and still be just as powerful.
Darren Raymond
There's a lot of reasons again, I think it is teachers that teach it in school. Often when you see Shakespeare on the syllabus, the teacher will introduce it as the hardest piece of work now that we're going to look at, which is the wrong thing to do. I don't think that they are particularly - I know I'm generalizing here. But I've worked in a lot of schools over the years and kind of seen how education deals with that part of the curriculum. I don't think they have a lot of confidence when it comes to dealing with that text, because they're so rigid. They feel that there's only kind of one way to look at it. I think as well, because it's very - I think it's very whitewashed, in terms of how it's taught in schools. I mean, he was a white writer. Yeah. But the history that you know, the Elizabethan period isn't just about white people. There were black people before the Elizabethan period in this country that contributed to art and culture. And Shakespeare himself was inspired by those stories, because it was a time of exploration when people were traveling and would come back with fantastical stories about the other. And these things are not really spoken about, like it's kind of just, you know, t's like we didn't exist. But yet they like us to kind of invest in the storytelling. And go away and answer a question on Act 1 Scene 2 of Macbeth without reading the play, or seeing the play in its entireit to begin with. So that's a problem. Sitting behind the desk and trying to decipher, you know, language that is 400 plus years old is a problem. Not allowing young people to translate that language in a way that makes sense to them, or to just respond to that text in a way that makes sense to them is a problem. Not seeing Shakespeare first before you try to tackle the text, because he was a playwright before anything, before an academic. That is a problem. You know, you pick up a Shakespeare text, and before the play starts there's about 17,000 pages of academia. And then there's like 156 pages of the play. It's about the play. It's not about the academia. It's not, nobody's interested in - well people are - but you are already scared before you even get to the play, you're just like "What is this?" I think there's too much onus that's put on the work , Shakespeare is put too much on a pedestal. He was a borrower, from a lot of, you know, writers, a lot of artists around his time. And we talked about, again, that we don't allow people to be innovative around that work. Which is ironic, because Shakespeare was himself an innovator, of language. And, actually, the next closest thing to innovation, when it comes to language, is the young generation. Like, they make up words, like no other generation I've seen. Even ours, like we got our words. We got a brilliant game called slang spit, where we take slang from different generations. And the young people pull it out of a bag, and no matter what the word is they've got to try and put that word in the sentence, or explain the word. It's really good game. But now the language is just kind of like, I would come in today thinking "Yeah, I'm on top of the young people language." And tomorrow, that word's gone. It's in the bin innit. You know, so they're creating language all the time. And they're being demonized for it. Like they're dumbing down the English language, or they're not intellectual and stuff like that. And then they come to Shakespeare. And then the teacher says, you know, "and this man created 100, and something new bits of language." And you're thinking well, so why are you celebrating him? But you're telling me I can't speak? So it's very, you know, it's very kind of contradictory in how it is. And, yes, that's a lot of reasons why I think it doesn't work. And, and I think teachers don't expect those that are coming from a non white background, to engage with this work as well.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I definitely agree. I went to a very white school to the point where it was just me like in my class, that was it. And I definitely see that like, there was no effort made to make it anything other than here's the text, read it, analyze it. There was no engagement, which I think first and foremost is the problem. It's a play. Let's act it out. Let's get physical with it. Because no one's going to - imagine if you did that with any other sort of, like a film script. You just went "just read the film script. I'm not going to watch the film. Just read the scripts."
Darren Raymond
Yeah yeah yeah, and that'll tell you everything about the film.
Brianna (TBP)
Exactly. We're gonna take out all the nuance, we're gonna take out all the like character stuff, just read it in black and white.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, it's a joke. It really is a joke. You know, so we're always just trying to find new ways of engaging and making that text fun. You know, before I came on the Zoom with you, I'm writing some material for a school at the moment. And we're going to forum theatre he death of Mercutio. So we'll you know, kind of up until he dies, it's a short scene, like 10 pages, but how do we prevent that death? And I know already, it's just going to be amazing, because the young people are going to be kind of stepping in and trying to change the action. And throughout that whole thing all we're doing is Shakespeare. And they don't even know it. And then it builds an appreciation for that. And then they want to go, when they see there's an opportunity to go and watch a play and it's a Shakespeare play, then they, there's more, you know, there's more of a chance of them saying, actually, yeah, I want to go and see that actually, because I like Shakespeare don't I.
Brianna (TBP)
I definitely think productions like you guys put on are so important, because even if you're interested in Shakespeare, I think especially coming from an ethnically diverse background. There's Shakespeare, and then there's Shakespeare. So you don't necessarily want to go and watch a bunch of old white dudes doing it in the original text, and falling asleep 40 minutes into it. But the way you guys do it, you make it fun and exciting and relevant. And I think organisations like that are so important.
Darren Raymond
Thank you. One young person said last year, I think somebody asked the audience "Oh, doing the show, has doing this made you want to do more Shakespeare and go and see, like real Shakespeare?" And they were like, "Well, firstly, I think this is real. Yeah. Like what we're doing is real. And secondly, no, I wouldn't. Like I don't mean to sound horrible or anything, but I'm not interested in going to see - just what you said - because I think Shakespeare's boring actually, but what we're doing here, I love it. Because it brings me in and I can respond to it. And, and, you know, that makes me feel I'm part of something." So you know whether or not they, they like Shakespeare at the end of what we do, we've realized that doesn't really matter, actually, you know, they're still, they're still getting it, they're still, you know, kind of engaging with it and it's changing them for the better.
Brianna (TBP)
And they're seeing the power of stories. And that's like we started with, such an important part of humanity. Once you've got that spark for storytelling, I do think it changes your life. So obviously, IYT has become incredibly successful. You've got people like Mark Rylance on your board of directors, and Naomie Harris as a patron. How did you end up getting these people involved? And what do you think the benefit is for young people to have names like that involved in the company,
Darren Raymond
We got them involved at gunpoint. I saw Mark in Brixton, held him up in the corner.
Both
*Laughs*
Darren Raymond
It's just through the work, you know, just kind of through stuff like this kind of having conversation with, you know, influencers like yourself and the work going out there and people learning about it. Mark, actually, I did a workshop with years ago, he came in and did a workshop with us. Not at Intermission. This was, you know, before I was at Intermission, and I was really kind of just like, rah, this guy's cool boi. And it was on Shakespeare. And I was just like, I've never seen Shakespeare done like this, I've never seen somebody kind of talk about Shakespeare in this way. Because he didn't, you know, he's talked about all the stuff that I spoke about before with Shakespeare, that's what he was like, he didn't you know, he wasn't precious about it, he didn't eulogize over it, he kind of just looked at the essence of the story and the characters. And he really brought the participants in that workshop into that space. And we could see ourselves in those stories and stuff like that. So it was cool. I didn't think anything of it, but it was cool. And then a few years later, I was doing a play at Intermission now I'm the AD there. And I was invited on to Radio 4 to talk about the play and the work that we're doing. And then I got a call a few weeks later from Mark Rylance's PA saying that he'd heard the interview on the radio, and I think I'd mentioned the workshop that he did. And he was just taken aback by the fact that I had gone on and kind of was still working like and created this amazing project. So the work that he did with us was in prison, by the way. Then he was like "Oh my gosh I remember this guy and now he's doing this, this is amazing." She was like, he would really like to invite you to see him in Jerusalem. He was in a play called Jerusalem on the West End at the time. I didn't know who Mark was you know, really. At the Jerusalem time I knew a little bit more but definitely when he came to do the workshop, I didn't, he was just this normal white guy coming in to work with us. I mean, he is a normal white guy, but anyway! So I've gone to see him in Jerusalem, then we've gone out after for a drink, we've been talking and he was really interested in kind of what I'm doing. He was amazed that I continued to work. And he was just so proud of kind of what I had achieved. And he made me three promises. One was to come and see one of my productions. Second one is that he would introduce me to the education department at the Globe Theatre. And the third one, this is a running gag between me and him. I said, I can't remember but I think he said, he's gonna buy me a house.
Both
*Laughs*
Darren Raymond
I keep changing it all the time. But certainly two of the promises that he made, he kept. So he came to see a production back in 2014, or maybe earlier. And afterwards he was like, my gosh, this is like the best rendition of Shakespeare I've ever seen, this is just amazing. And he came on a press night and obviously the press were over him and stuff like that, and he was like, "How can I support?" and I said, Mark, you've done enough by coming, thank you, that's, that's more than enough. He goes "No no no, I feel like I need to do something. How about I become a patron of the organisation?" And I said, "Let me think about it."
Both
*Laughs*
Darren Raymond
That's how he became involved. And yeah, he became a patron and then he's just become more and more involved. He stepped down from being a patron and came on board, became a trustee because he, you know, he could do more as a trustee. And now he's a great friend, me and Mark are great friends, I can call him anytime, he calls me we go out, you know, chill, you know, he knows my family, I know his family. So he's become more of a friend than anything else, but he's a great supporter as well. Naomie Harris, she came, and her mum has actually done some workshops with us before her mum's a writer and she done some workshops with us. But she never came through her mum, she came through one of our graduates who did some work with her on some kind of project. And because all our graduates talk about the work because that's what Intermission is, they just love that place. So they're always kind of selling it. And then she came to see a show. And she was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. How can I be involved?" And we asked her to be a patron. And she kind of responded within the second, saying yes. And she's been great as well.
Brianna (TBP)
So did I hear right from people at press night, that when the pandemic was happening, and obviously you guys couldn't meet in person, you guys had online courses with some pretty big names. How did that come about, who did you have involved and how has that helped the young people?
Darren Raymond
Yeah, so when the pandemic happened, and we couldn't meet in person, like most organisations, we were like okay, how do we retain engagement of young people? How do we still offer something and make, you know, support them? We tried to stay away from going online, which was stupid, because we thought there was some other way out there being innovators, but we ended up online. And yeah, we just, we had a really good year online. We done so much offerings, and like you rightly said, we got some great artists coming in and speaking to young people on Zoom. And Mark really was spearheading a lot of it. So he kind of through a lot of his contacts got Whoopi Goldberg, which was just like A-1 boi. Yeah, the young people were like what, Intermission just went to another level for them. Daniel Kaluuya came on and he actually went to school with one of our graduates, Daniel's been to see our work before but one of our graduates got him to come and do a zoom as well, which was amazing. He was great. Obviously being who he is, Oscar winner, their generation.
Brianna (TBP)
I was gonna say quite close to their age as well.
Darren Raymond
Yeah. So that was just, you could hear a pin drop in that conversation. David Oyelowo came on and that was amazing. Andrew Garfield, for obvious reasons, Spider-man, they went crazy. Yeah, I'm sure I'll miss miss one or two. But yeah, so it was kind of just through our networks, who's associated with us. As I said Mark kind of got a few of them in and then the others came from different kinds of contacts that we have. That's something that we're continuing as well, because it was so successful. And now like other artists, industry kind of people are really kind of up for coming in and speaking so we're about to line up one with Lennie James soon as well. And yeah, some more females. We need a few more females as well on there, but um, yeah, that was really cool.
Brianna (TBP)
That's amazing because - I don't like the idea of celebrities too much. I kind of find it makes me cringe a bit. They're just people with a talent. But when you're a young person and you come from deprivation, and you're pretty much told by most people in your life like "This is it, you've started here, you're staying here" to then have someone of the caliber of Whoopi Goldberg - to sit in your, in your home in South London, East London, wherever you are, and have Whoopi Goldberg on your screen taking time for you. Something like that is life changing? Yeah, that's a huge thing.
Darren Raymond
I'm feeling that we're a bit similar, you said you don't have time for the celebrity status. Me too, by the way. And every time these people come on Zoom, we kind of really bring them crashing down to earth. Because we are just like, as you saw us on stage and after, that's what we're like, like, we're all people innit. So don't be coming in talking about this or whatever. So we just kind of buss jokes, you know, talk about what we want to talk about, there's no polite or correctness because we're all just people innit. I'm gonna ask this question and I don't even study them, but what starsign are you?
Brianna (TBP)
I'm a Taurus.
Darren Raymond
Ohhh, Nana's a Pisces in the background.
Brianna (TBP)
What are you?
Darren Raymond
Aries.
Brianna (TBP)
Are you an April Aries?
Darren Raymond
Yeah, yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
I'm April Taurus, so probably fairly close.
Darren Raymond
Yeah. Okay. Make sense, right.
Brianna (TBP)
You met my dad on press night, he's also an April Aries.
Darren Raymond
Oh, is he? Yeah, your Dad's a G man. I need to contact your dad because I'm sure I had an email from him. But I can't find it anywhere.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I'll drop you his email.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, definitely. It might not be him. That'd be embarrassing.
Brianna (TBP)
But no, it definitely was because he messaged me and was like, I messaged Darren, I really want to help him out.
Darren Raymond
Oh, is it? Oh, yeah. I'm gonna hit him up. 100%. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Where is he in Spain now? Or is he back?
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, he's in Spain. Yeah.
Darren Raymond
Yeah your Dad was cool man, I loved meeting your dad.
Brianna (TBP)
He literally didn't shut up about that play for a solid month. Every time I spoke to him, he was like, I just can't get over it. They're so young and so talented. And there was a woman sat next to him that was like, she was big into theatre. She was like, I've been to plays for years, I've been to hundreds. And she was like, this is the best thing I've ever seen.
Darren Raymond
Yes, love that.
Brianna (TBP)
Right so the last question I have, and it's completely separate to everything else we've spoken about. But I ask everyone that does this. Because The Black project for me, like you said earlier about young people not really knowing where they fit in, in this country. That's kind of why this started. I was trying to figure out my place and exploring identity and stuff. So I ask everyone, what does being black mean to you?
Darren Raymond
Brianna boi, you got some questions in your repertoire innit. You just chuck that one on me like that. What does being black - being black mean?
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah.
Darren Raymond
I've never been lost for words.
Brianna (TBP)
I'll take that!
Darren Raymond
(To Nana) I know you got something funny to say? Nah, you got nothing?
It's hard, because you don't think about it until you're asked it. Because it's just how we exist. It's my favorite question to ask because the reactions and the answers are always phenomenal.
Nana
There's the experience of being Black - Hello.
Brianna (TBP)
Hello!
Nana
I remember you! I been hearing your voice off screen and now I can see you, I remember you! There are two ways that,you know, it's not what being black means. It could be kind of, you know, my experiences of being black is frustration, you know, going into places and being looked at harder than the other person. Always, you know, that that age old story of, you know, always having to work 10 times harder than your counterpart. We speak a lot about, you know, maybe as a black person, I shouldn't have to pay taxes because my mum wasn't, didn't have a history of colonialism to fall back on where, you know, her family made, or ancestor or whoever made loads of money through slavery and the rest of it. I came to this country. Well, I was born in this country with my mum. Just me and my mum. So that that's kind of what I think that's the experience of being black, but what does being black mean to me?
Darren Raymond
What does being black mean to you. This is my daughter - say hello. She came to see the play, she's an influencer, runs something called The Black Project, and the question is what does being black mean to you? You've got me there man.
Brianna (TBP)
One of my favourite answers was someone said, being black to them means knowing that they are part of not just the community that's here now. But the community that came before, and that they stand on the back of so much more than they can possibly be themselves. I thought that was amazing. And then someone else said that for them, It's resilience and community. Because there's an instant connection, you can literally hop off a plane in like, I don't know, the middle of Bulgaria, and you see a black person everyone will do the nod. Because there's like instant recognition of like, shared experience, shared something, there's a shared feeling that exists within the black community. And those are the two that stuck with me anyway.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, that might help me a little bit. So I can't give a short answers that, you know, is as profound as that but I would say being black to me. I would say it means everything to me. So I put being black before anything I do. I don't remind myself I'm black. Because I know I'm black. But I suppose the experience of being black in a world that has thrown up so much oppression, so much injustice against the colour of you know, against that colour, has made me conscious of the colour of my skin. On a daily basis in situations, and so being black, I suppose, to me is about how we, how I help to rewrite the narrative of what it is to be black? Yeah, I think, Oh, I guess I gotta think about that. I might have to email you. I might have to email you that one. That one there, that's thrown me.
Brianna (TBP)
You should ask the young people and see what they say.
Darren Raymond
I am gonna, I'm gonna start asking everybody. Even if they're not black.
All
*Laughs*
Darren Raymond
"What does being black mean to you?" They're gonna look at me like "D I'm not black." Yeah yeah yeah, but just answer the question.
Brianna (TBP)
If you were.
Darren Raymond
I need help here, I need help. That is a very, very, very, very good question. Very good question.
Brianna (TBP)
Thank you. I'm glad that I've left you on that note, that that's what we've ended on.
Darren Raymond
Yeah, you've left me thinking, that's going to be on my mind. There's so many answers, you can give, so many things you can say.
Brianna (TBP)
But in that is almost an answer in itself. Because I think the reason I kind of started this was because we were really being spoken about like we all had one experience. Like that being Black was one thing. And I started it off of the back of the George Floyd murder and how we were only being spoken about in terms of death and tragedy and violence and heartache. And the reason I started asking people was to kind of collate this massive long list of what it means to so many people to be black, because we're not a homogenous being that only has one experience. So to even say there's so many things you could say isn't itself an answer.
Darren Raymond
Yeah. The more I think about it now as well, like, I'm very conscious of that. I just think black people, I think we're incredible, I think we're incredibly resilient. So you mentioned that earlier, incredibly innovative and gifted and pioneers. So for me, it's like I am just so happy - probably happy isn't the right word, there's a word that kind of encapsulates it more - to be black. Yeah, cuz I know I'm part of - rich is a good word - of a rich race, or a rich line of people, a rich culture, a rich ancestry. Like, I feel blessed. I couldn't imagine being anything else. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't want to so yeah, I don't know, man. It's a tough one. It's a tough one to answer to. You've done me over here.
Brianna (TBP)
Came out of left field with that one.
Darren Raymond
No thank you though, thank you.
Brianna (TBP)
No, thank you so much for your time. It's been really good.
Darren Raymond
Yeah no, and what you're doing with The Black Project is amazing as well. And your story's just - has anybody interviewed you?
Brianna (TBP)
I've done a couple of podcasts. Yeah, it's been - it's weird that people want to talk to me.
Darren Raymond
Nah, you're amazing how you started it and what you're doing and how you're kind of getting, you know, getting information out to people and celebrating stories. It's brilliant man.
Brianna (TBP)
Thank you so much. Good to talk to you!
Follow Intermission Youth Theatre on Instagram at @weareintermission, and Darren can be found at @itsdarrenraymond.