In Conversation With: Ryan Calais Cameron
Earlier this week I sat down with writer, actor, artistic director and father, Ryan Calais-Cameron to talk growing up, how Jimmy Akingbola helped launch his career, visions for the future, his new play “For Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When The Hue Get’s Too Heavy”, and importantly, chicken.
I really enjoyed this one, Ryan was very open, and warm with his words, I hope you guys enjoy it!
Brianna (TBP)
Hey, how are you?
Ryan
Good man just busy. Really, really, really, really busy. So, yeah. But I'm alright. How are you?
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I'm good thanks!. You go on paternity leave after this right?
Ryan
Yeah, this is my last bit of press and then I've got a hand in - got a deadline tonight and then that's it for at least a week. Spend some time with the family.
Brianna (TBP)
That'll be nice!
Ryan
Yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
Cool, well, I won't keep you too long then.
Ryan
Bless you!
Brianna (TBP)
And I try and keep it really like, chilled, relaxed, so it doesn't feel like you know, work!
Ryan
(Laugh).
Brianna (TBP)
So a couple of questions to start off easy. You want to just introduce yourself for the followers?
Ryan
Cool, I'm Ryan Calais Cameron. I'm a actor, writer, I'm the Artistic Director of Nouveau Riche. And I'm the writer of For Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When The Hue Gets Too Heavy.
Brianna (TBP)
Thank you. And so we're definitely going to get into for black boys. But I want to sort of start off with growing up, where did you grow up? And what was that experience? like for you?
Ryan
Yeah, I'm from southeast London. I'm from Lewisham. So I think, growing up was joyous. Y'know what I mean - and I think as you grow older, you realize "Okay, wow," like you know, I'm from a lower working class background, and you realize that it's very difficult outside of the comfort of your own community. But when you're growing up, that's paradise. It's all you know. Y'know what I mean, don't have money, but you make worlds out of things that you find in the bin chute, or an old mattress is a flying carpet, so it was incredible. When I got older, I left my neighborhood people were like, "Oh my gosh, you're from Lewisham? That must be horrible." I'm like, Oh, snap, really!? And that's something that I really wanted to get across in for black boys. What it is before society lets you know what it really means to be black in this world. You're just kids.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, it's true, just kids being kids. So as a writer, did you feel that there were spaces in Lewisham, in the southeast London area, for you to hone that craft explore that craft in a sort of safe and nurturing environment? Or was it just school?
Ryan
My craft as a writer? Yeah. No, not at all. So I started writing at the age of like, 24/25. I think as a, as a youngster, especially a young black man, you kind of go by what you see. Right? So yeah, there was no writers that were from my neighborhood that were coming in to say, hey, or do workshops with us. That wasn't something that I felt I could identify with. But it still meant I had stories. Do y'know what I mean, I love to tell a good story. And I love to create a world and stuff like that. But I was actually told when I wanted to pursue writing when I was in year nine - I was told by our careers advisor that I should pursue something that was more realistic. So I started out doing electrical installation. That's what I started doing when I left school. Because writing was way too, it's a middle class profession, isn't it? So that's interesting. That's why I do so much work in my community now so that there's a level of visibility there. Don't ever let no one tell you you can't be anything.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, it's interesting. That's why I do these in conversations, because I want to get as many people from as many different career paths so that - because I didn't have that growing up either. I was the only kid of colour in my year in my rural school in Sussex. And I went to careers advisor and was told the same thing like yeah, what you want to do it is not feasible.
Ryan
Who are these carers advisors, man.
Both
(Laughter)
Brianna (TBP)
What about with acting, did you find that there was any spaces for acting when you were growing up? Or was that much the same?
Ryan
So I'm one of the associates at the Albany in Deptford. So I read a flyer when I was - how old was I? About 13/14. I read a flyer that they were doing acting classes there and I was like, man I'm so this. And my drama teachers were like, you're really good, but there was no outlet. So I went to these classes, I got in there. And yeah, they really helped me. I - that's how I knew I loved acting. It would be another kind of like, 6,7,8 years before I literally went, you know what, I want to do this. I don't care what anyone says. But I knew I loved that. But again, there was no kind of avenue to get into it. After those classes. That's why again, like going back to the Albany, what 15 years later, and helping to direct what's happening, that is massive. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
So what did you do after that? What was your path in Acting after that, did you do drama school or - what did that look like?
Ryan
Yeah, I went to - so like I was saying I did electrical installation path. And I was getting to the point where I was on my NVQ level 2. So I had to go and get a job. And I just had this kind of like this moment where I was like, I can't do this for the rest of my life and be unhappy. I just won't do that. I saw that in my uncles and aunties, my elders, you just work just to work, right? I was like, No, if I'm not gonna be happy for the rest of my life what's the point? So essentially, it was a case of going I'm going to pursue this acting thing. I don't know a single thing about acting, I don't know any schools. And I think the most humbling thing was having to go back to college. Because that seemed like the only pathway so imagine, I was just about to graduate from college and now going back to square one to do it all over again. With these kids that are like - it's literally only two years younger, but when you're like, 19 and the guys are 16?
Brianna (TBP)
It feels massive.
Ryan
Yeah, it's a massive difference. So it was humbling to go back. I went to college, you know, and I tried to get as much as I possibly could from the teachers, from the course and yeah, I went to drama school. AUB in Bournemouth.
Brianna (TBP)
Oh wow, dope, I know a few people that went there.
Ryan
Yeah, so I went there for three years, again looking for a route in and I left and I was just hungry. I left and I was hungry, hungry, hungry. I messaged a couple of artists on Facebook. This was the time where everyone was on Facebook, everyone. And I messaged Jimmy Akingbola. He was in Holby City at the time and I was like, "Look, man, I'm a big fan of your work. I need to get into this industry by any means necessary." And he was like I do a competition called monologue slam. You should come down, I said I'm coming. And I came man, I remember I was in Bournemouth, my last thirty pounds. I got the coach, couldn't even afford the train. Got the coach and I wrote a monologue on the coach. And I remember coming off the coach and going - I think monologue slam was in Rich Mix Shoreditch. I got off the coach. And I remember going over a monologue in my head. And I got there and I said I'm gonna win this. That this is my opportunity, man. And if I don't, then I'm just gonna go and get a normal job like this acting thing has just become too much. And yeah, that night I got seen there was a lot of people in the audience and I managed to get - basically long story short: I got an audition for the royal court. Five auditions later I booked one of the lead roles there and yeah, man I got a top agent and the rest is history.
Brianna (TBP)
Amazing. Like the balls that it takes to just like - because even back then Jimmy Akingbola was a name like, the guts to go "You know what, I'm taking my shot. I'm gonna message and see what happens."
Ryan
Yeah, he was one of about 10 people I messaged as well. I think as well if you're gonna pursue a career like this, you know, it's one of the hardest industries to break in the whole entire world. I think if you're not coming to it in this kind of thing of, I'm going to move mountains for this, then you're better off just not getting your heart broken at all,it's incredibly difficult. You know what I mean, I was reading something the other day that said only 1% of professional writers are writing at this time, it's crazy. So I feel like, my biggest thing is to go you give this everything or you give it nothing. There's no in between. So yeah, man, at that age, I was hungrier than I've ever been in my whole life. I sometimes have to look back to that guy and go, maaan, like to be that kind of -because remember, I hadn't had my heart broken. The industry hadn't messed me up or anything. I was just out of school. I want everything. So yeah, it's just crazy to reflect on.
Brianna (TBP)
So what has your experience in the industry been in terms of - I've spoken to a few people that are in the industry. And what I'm hearing a lot of is that they have to write for themselves if they want the parts. Is that similar to your experience?
Ryan
Kind of. I think - I think my experience is a little different. Because when I started my company nouveau riche, I was actually getting loads of parts. I was working consecutively. And I had been for six years straight. I was in work, that's what I did, I was an actor by profession. But I wasn't being fulfilled as an artist. There was a part of me, that was like, Okay, I can do these roles, kind of with my eyes closed. I know what I'm doing. I'm not being stretched. I'm not being pushed. And the narrative for black people in general was not being pushed either. So that's what made me want to write. I was like, instead of me continually asking them to create this for us. Why don't I create something, no writing experience whatsoever. No experience of running a production company, but I was like, Nah, man. I'm not talking about, going swimming on Jupiter. Like I'm talking about something that people do every day. Like there's knowledge that's out there, so I started reading a lot. And yeah, we started this company for the basis of I was tired of doing things that I felt like had already been done. I was looking for new ones. So that's what led me to start writing and to start a company.
Brianna (TBP)
So I watched the promo clip of you and the director of, For Black Boys, Tristan Fynn-Aiduenu talking about the play, and it was said that the reason that you created this, or part of the reason you created this, was to create a space for black boys to talk and to play. I was wondering, did you have that when you were growing up? When you were at university? Did you have that space where you felt comfortable to be a - unapologetically black, and b - to discuss things like mental health?
Brianna (TBP)
Never. Never, ever. Even now, in my early 30s, there's still no space for that. I mean, there's no space in your family, in your friendship groups. And that's essentially why the play is so important. That is what the play is for. That is who the play is for. It says it in the title, we can't be any clearer. And it's interesting, because someone might ask me "Yeah, but black boys talk all the time", or black men talk in a barber shop for this and that, yeah. But we say things that we want other black people, black men to hear. Not the inner depths of our soul, not what you're really feeling. I've never, ever heard a black man say "Oh, my hearts broken." You know what I mean? Something as honest as that, there's no space for that. Because since we've been young, we've been conditioned to be hardened, to be strong, to just get over it, to not cry. So where is the space to really pour out? And that for me was what this play was about, you know, more than just being sad. But being elated, being seen, and being able to be fully human. So yeah, that was, that's what I really wanted to get across in this piece.
Brianna (TBP)
That's such a lovely way of looking at the arts, as being a space for people to be the most human that they can be. And my next question was going to be "Why do you think the arts resonate with people" but I think you've kind of answered it already.
Ryan
Yeah, I think I essentially again, well not again, but for me with the show, - cos I was asked the other day, like, could this show be a lecture or something? No, it's the element of entertainment, and education at the same time. Like, I want people to come and learn something completely new that they didn't know about this black male experience, whilst also being entertained. And I feel like whenever we talk about blackness, in any kind of context is always dark, and trauma, and people die. Yeah, and then it's just like, yo, like black people are actually living. Can we talk about that please? And if we're going to talk about suicide, then let's also talk about the importance of being alive, you know, I want people- I don't know who's coming into the audience, but I want them to be able to look at what's happening on stage and go this is another reason that I should stay alive today. There's so much joy and passion and honesty, you know what I mean? So yeah, I really hope that people can take that away from this experience.
Brianna (TBP)
Like you say, obviously the world is very heavy at the minute for us - for everyone but for us, especially for black communities. Where do you go to find joy in that, what brings you joy?
Ryan
I think it's two aspects. I've only really started to find joy in the last, I'd say seven years. And I think most of that has come from my faith. I found faith in Christianity that changed everything in my whole entire life, I finally found hope. Yeah, you know, I found a hope that was bigger than this world, and in that I found a wife. You know, I found somebody that could love me for me. I didn't have to be this kind of stereotype of what a black man should be, like he should be cool and have all the words and have the money in the bank and the beat - No, I could just be Ryan. There's very few places where you can just be. And then also what came from that, the fruits of that union, we've had children you know, children came from that so that's it. Whenever I'm, I'm down, the first thing I think to is my faith, and my family. And those are the things that keep me afloat because nothing's changed in this world. As far as I'm concerned. It's still tough out here. Being anybody, but being a person of color. You know, being a black woman, being a black man is tough. And I get that kind of sanctuary and sanity from my faith, my family.
Brianna (TBP)
That leads really nicely into a question that I was gonna save for later, but I'm going to use it now. What do you want the world to look like for your children? In what way do you want it to differ from what you've experienced, and in what ways would you like it to be similar?
Ryan
Yeah, I think it's difficult when I talk about anything that's outside of my control. I don't know what the world's gonna be like tomorrow or in 20 years time, but I know what I can do as a father, that helps my children, that's the first thing is for me to be 100%, authentic, you know? To the way that I dress, to the way that I talk, I want my children to be able to see a successful black man. Who feels comfortable in his own skin, he doesn't have to change his voice, or put on certain clothes or act a certain way to assimilate whiteness in order to be successful, he's successful, because he is who he is. I want my children to, to live in a world where they can see a marriage that works. Two people that love one another, so that they know how to love a woman and they know how to be loved by a woman do you know what I mean? These are the kinds of things that I want my sons to be around, you know, I have three sons. And one on the way. I took one of my sons, when Queens of Sheba was on, to Soho to sit there and see his father's show and then do a Q&A. And for that to be normal for them. So they don't have to second guess themselves or feel imposter syndrome, because this is normal for them. To see things that are great. Yeah, that's the kind of world I want for my children, to never have to second guess themselves.
Brianna (TBP)
You mentioned imposter syndrome there. Is that something that you've had to contend with? Do you feel that?
Ryan
All the time, all the time. I think - so I started writing my plays with my company. So you know, I get to decide who I work with. So that was very comfortable. Then more people started approaching for work. And, you know, for instance, I wrote an article for The Independent recently. And that's mind blowing. Like, did I even finish school? Like, do you know what I mean like, do I even have GCSEs? And I'm writing for The Independent, stupidly I went onto their site, and I looked up all the people that had written just before me, and I'm talking about 10 people that all went to Eton that went to Oxford they went to and I'm thinking yo, I'm from Lewisham. Like, my school was like, Fight Club, like, should I be here? That constant question of, should I be here? Should I be here, people like me shouldn't be here. People like me shouldn't be here. And I eventually wrote the article, first draft, they loved it. And I was just like, what was that about? But this is exactly what I'm talking about. In terms of my children, I want them to see people that look like them, that sound like them, that come from their walk of life, being excellent. So that's just normal for them. You know what I mean, so yeah, imposter syndrome is crazy when I leave the comfort of my own company and go into the real world and see how white it is. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, like, really? I'm the only one here. You know what I mean. This is mad.
Brianna (TBP)
It's so interesting to hear you say that, because I definitely get it even with The Black Project. Like I'm, I'm going to do a panel at King's College London next week. I haven't finished uni yet. And a university, like one of the top in the country is inviting me in? And like, I feel like it impacts on how proud I feel. Because I'm like, "Why are you asking me?" Yeah, it's mad. It's mad. How many of us experienced that.
Ryan
Yeah. And again, even just what you touched upon, you know, it's about our own kind of level of security as well. Even if other people are going, No, you should be there, that level of insecurity is what kind of really holds us back, isn't it? It's going No, because we don't find value in ourselves like that. And that in itself, is a condition. And we speak about that in For Black Boys and how we have been conditioned, you know.,
Brianna (TBP)
It even goes back to what we mentioned, right? In the beginning, these careers advisors who are telling us at like 13/14. You're aiming too high, bring it down.
Ryan
Yeah. Yeah, you are aiming to hire someone that looks specifically like you, you know. Yeah. It's crazy.
Brianna (TBP)
So where did the idea for For Black Boys come from? When did this come to you? How long did it take?
Ryan
I think so. The whole process of language has been 10 years, started in 2011. It's been such a transcendent experience for me kind of from being a young man to being a slightly older, young man.
Both
(Laugh)
Ryan
But I needed 10 years because I needed to have lived by experience for myself to be able to bear it on stage. You know, the kind of ideas that I had 10 years ago, you know, some of them are incredible and profound. And then as I grew, I realized that I've actually changed. So yeah, and the idea came from reading For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When The Rainbow Was Enuf. And I went, Wow, this is a play for - like a playful play for black women in 1970s New York, and how it resonated with black women. And I'm going man, if only we had something for that in our home community you know, where black boys could feel seen. And then I remember I put a post on Facebook, good old Facebook and I said, yo any writers around, I'm not a writer, but I really want to work on this project, I think I need it, I think I need it, we need it. And, and only one person applied, which was Tristan. And this is before either of us were professionals. And we never managed to meet, I don't know what happened. But obviously years later, the idea has not left me and then two massive things. Obviously the pandemic really, really pushed it to get finished. And the murder of Trayvon Martin really touched me in many ways, but mostly because he was a black boy in a hood. And I overheard two people discussing "A black boy in a hood, you know, of course, people are going to be scared," and I went I'm a black boy in a hood, what does that mean? So automatically, I wanted to really - I knew I had to, had to write from the other side of that, I had to write from the perspective of that black boy and for us as a society to hopefully want to listen to those young black men bare their soul. And that's why I've written it, that's why I've written this play.
Brianna (TBP)
Do you think this play and plays like it are gonna eventually loosen the taboo around mental health in general, mental health in men, and then very specifically mental health within the black community?
Ryan
I hope so man. I really really hope so. I mean the plays been on already for one week, we've sold out every single night, every single night had a standing ovation, every single night has had black men holding black men, something I've never seen in my whole entire life. People sitting down having a conversation. This is before they've even left the theater. So my only hope is that those conversations continue. We continue to hold one another, we continue to hold space for one another. Because I honestly believe that it will save lives. The amount of people that have come to me, that I don't even know them, they've just come to me because they know that I'm the writer of the play and have gone Ryan like this play has moved me. You know? I don't even have the words because I don't have the emotion - I can't articulate the emotion because I've never been this emotional before. So I know that regardless of what anybody in this whole entire world feels, that black boys are being touched by it and that's what the play is - it says it in the title man. That's what the play is for, that's what it's about. Yeah, that's my job done man.
Brianna (TBP)
That's so beautiful to hear. So last couple of questions and then I'll let you go and the first one is, what does being black mean to you?
Ryan
What does being black mean to me? It has to mean instant pride joy. It means that I have to look at everything that is positive about being black whilst the world gives me everything that is negative about being black, so it means I have to hold everything else very very dear to me. Other than that I'm just a man. It's society that deems me as black I'm just a man. So yeah pride I would say.
Brianna (TBP)
And then the last one is super light. What is one food or one recipe you could not live without?
Ryan
What could I not live without? That is interesting because, I would say chicken. It's interesting because my whole entire play is trying to subvert stereotypes.
Both
(Laugh)
Ryan
If we're talking about live without - cos there's a difference between live without and what do I really like the most? Cuz I like stuff the most, I will say oxtail. I love a good Oxtail right but I don't eat every day, that's a special occasion dish. Whereas chicken, again I don't eat every day, but um, I couldn't live without it. That's dumb. I mean I hold tight like vegans, vegetarians, you know, I know you man are doing your thing. But to live without chicken is crazy. It's crazy. There's so much different versions of chicken as well like.
Brianna (TBP)
My friends and I was gonna do barbecue last year and they were like, what's everyone's dietary things? And I was like, I'm mostly vegetarian, but I do eat chicken. And they're like yeah, you're a black vegetarian.
Both
(Laugh)
Ryan
There you go. And when I see my brothers and sisters out there like yeah, vegetarian. There's no - they're not happy, man.
Brianna (TBP)
They can't be.
Ryan
Can't be man.
Both
(Laugh)
Ryan
I always say to people, is it nice? Is it nice the vegan stuff? Is it nice? And they're like, Look man is healthy and I'm saving the world. I know that man. I know that.
Brianna (TBP)
BUT is it nice though?
Both
(Laugh)
Ryan
Enjoy yourself man. But yeah, man. Is what it is innit.
Brianna (TBP)
Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm looking forward to seeing the play. I was supposed to come Friday but brief COVID scare, but it's all good. And so I'm coming next week and I cannot wait to see it.
Ryan
Perfect. Yeah, let us know, man let us know.
Brianna (TBP)
Cool, and I'm gonna post this, get people going.
Ryan
Bless you man, let's sell the whole thing out.
Brianna (TBP)
100% I think it's so important. I really do especially with what I've done with The Black Project hearing young people - and I've had a lot of men, reach out to me and let you know what your platform has had me engaging in conversations that I never would have had with people around me. And I just think it is changing lives in some small way. That conversation that, like my platforms doing your play is doing, other creatives are doing - it's going to change lives. And that's so important.
Ryan
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy important, man. Bless you, man. Keep doing what you're doing.
Brianna (TBP)
For sure. And you, and if there's anything else that I can support with, let me know.
Ryan
WiIl definitely do that. Nice one. Alright, chat to you again soon!
Brianna (TBP)
For sure, and enjoy your paternity leave!
“For Black Boys Who Have Considered Suicide When The Hue Gets Too Heavy” is playing at New Diorama Theatre until November 6th 2021. Click here for tickets and more info!