ICW: Kai Samra

Back in July in the lead up to Edinburgh Fringe, I spoke with Kai Samra about his new show Natives that he’s bringing to the festival, his previous experience at the Fringe and why he’s a bit apprehensive about going back, how and why he ended up interviewing Tommy Robinson, and the importance of positive role models and support networks. Read on for all the details!

Brianna (TBP)
Hi Kai.

Kai Samra
Hi Brianna, how you doing?

Brianna (TBP)
Not too bad, how are you?

Kai Samra
I'm good! Yeah sorry, sorry about yesterday, I had some building work at my girlfriend's apartment so-

Brianna (TBP)
No, that's fine.

Kai Samra
How have you been anyway?

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, not too bad. Enjoying the pretty decent weather that we've been having, some rare moments!

Kai Samra
Oh, I was out yesterday and then just started raining out of nowhere and I was like, literally this is classic British weather. I was literally just out in a white t shirt and was like proper drenched. Whereabouts are you? Are you based in London?

Brianna (TBP)
No, I'm down south, I'm like 10 minutes from Hastings.

Kai Samra
Oh, okay!

Brianna (TBP)
Proper rural, like, during lockdown it was wicked, because there was no noise, nothing, gorgeous weather, countryside... the rest of my life, it's- it's dead, it's nothing's going on - but - lockdown was good!

Kai Samra
That's amazing. I think, yeah, I remember my ex's, like, parents lived in Hastings I think, and then-

Brianna (TBP)
Is it?

Kai Samra
Yeah, we went to go see it, like, I dunno, I felt like I was like in a scene from 'Get Out' or something!

Brianna (TBP)
Literally!

Kai Samra
It was proper like that.

Brianna (TBP)
Literally, and I'm in like a little village outside of that. So if Hastings was giving you 'Get Out' this is like 'Midsomer Murders'.

Kai Samra
Really? Proper white vibes! What's the village?

Brianna (TBP)
It's called (redacted, you don’t get to know where I live sorry xoxo)

Kai Samra
Oh, okay. My UK geography is absolutely terrible. But yeah, I've been down, I remember going to Hastings, randomly. It's near Brighton, right?

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, it's like, 40 minutes. Same coast. But yeah.

Kai Samra
Amazing. Thanks so much for having me on, by the way.

Brianna (TBP)
No, of course.

Kai Samra
How's it been going?

Brianna (TBP)
It's good. Yeah, I started it kinda during lockdown. And it, it sort of blew up really. I think people want to hear diverse voices. And that's literally all I do. I don't interview white people, it's literally all people of colour. So people love it.

Kai Samra
Nice. Have you been to the fringe before?

Brianna (TBP)
Never. I was supposed to go in 2020, [laughs] obviously didn't happen!

Kai Samra
Oh really? Performing and stuff?

Brianna (TBP)
No, no, no, literally just as a visitor, because I love comedy. So I was like, 'right, I'm gonna go up.' planned it for 2020. My mates and I were all keen, gonna do a roadtrip up for like two weeks in August. For obvious reasons, didn't happen.

Kai Samra
Yeah. So, 2019 was like the first time I went, like I did my first show then. But, yeah, I dunno, I felt like, a bit sketchy about going up again.

Brianna (TBP)
Really? Yeah, I was gonna ask, how are you feeling about going up, having had one under your belt now?

Kai Samra
Yeah, bit like, bit nervous about it. So basically, the only reason that - I wasn't gonna go up again, but I’m going with Soho Theatre, so they like produce and fund, they give you the money for it.

Brianna (TBP)
Okay.

Kai Samra
That's the only- that's like, one of the only reasons I'm going! Also, I feel like I've got a good show! But this is definitely gonna be probably the last year I ever go. I'm not big fan of the Edinburgh Fringe, to be fair.

Brianna (TBP)
Really?

Kai Samra
Yeah, I don't like it. Like, maybe If I was going as a punter I'd probably like it, but I think-

Brianna (TBP)
Is it, like, pressure? Is it like, high pressure stakes?

Kai Samra
Yeah. And also, it's a bit like- so basically, like, you start doing stand up, and you go, you know, you want to get signed to a management company and then you do competitions. And it's like, it's almost just there's a very middle class white audience, and then you feel like you're doing your jokes and material for that. So like, with 2019's show, it was like, a lot of stuff in it, I did a Vice show, I had to meet like Tommy Robinson and the EDL, and all this other stuff. So I did that, and then you kind of do it, and all the reviewers are like the Guardian and Evening Standard, they’re all just middle class blokes - and I got like nice reviews and that - but then the Amazon special came out and then I feel like you have a bit more of your own audience. And they're like, not the people that would go to the Edinburgh Fringe. And then when I started writing material, and I supported like Guz Khan - I'm from Birmingham so you know, just working class, kind of people of color and stuff. And then I started writing a lot of material, for that. Like start speaking Punjabi in it and stuff. And then I wrote a show, and then I wasn't going to take it to Fringe. I was just going to tour it. And then, because I'm going to Edinburgh Fringe like, you kind of, you're changing the show to try and like, appeal to an Edinburgh audience, and I feel like I don't know why I’m doing that. But yeah, apart from that, it's, yeah, it's fine. Like I said, I don't have the financial burden of spending all that money.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, that's a touch! That makes it easier to stomach that you're going up there if you’re not sure about it. It's not your money.

Kai Samra
I know, that's the thing. So I was lucky - they did my first show as well. I definitely wouldn't ever be in a position, I wouldn't want to do it, even if I had the money, like, you know, to drop £15k on a show and stuff-

Brianna (TBP)
Oh my god, is that how much it is?

Kai Samra
Yeah, like, especially because I’m at Pleasance and stuff, it’s a big venue. And like, PR is, like, two, three grand, and just like, accommodation, travel, food, you know, it's really expensive. So obviously, it attracts a certain thing. But the thing as well as it's even, I'm a bit worried about this year, as well, because obviously, because of the cost of living crisis, and all that, people are really feeling it. So I feel, you know, bad! Like, my show's a lot to do with like class and stuff, and then I feel bad just charging people 15 quid a ticket to come and see it. So I like to try and do little things like, I dunno, if you're from a working class background, or you’re a person of colour, I'll just give you a free ticket and stuff like because I just want- I'd rather perform to people like that.

Brianna (TBP)
That's the audience you're writing for, like, they're the ones that are gonna relate to your material.

Kai Samra
Exactly, they're the people that like, come and see you again, and stuff and like, they're fans of you, so I'm just like why? It just doesn't really make kind of sense. But um, yeah, and I remember just like, last time, I probably saw like, two Asian people on the whole time, like, during the Edinburgh Fringe. Now when I do shows, and even these previews that are doing really well, like, you know, selling well. But yeah, they're more Asian audiences and stuff, like basically not the sort of audiences that are at the Edinburgh Fringe, but maybe it'll be different this year. I don't wanna, don't wanna jinx it. I know that they're trying to do a thing on NextUp, where they're just streaming shows. So they offered it to me to do it. But it's like, they can just like film the show and stream it. So basically, if you're not in Edinburgh, you can still watch the shows. Which, I dunno, yeah, which will be kind of interesting. But yeah, I'm glad I kind of did it in 2019. I felt like I got some decent stuff out of it. And then, yeah, wasn't gonna go again. But then obviously, Soho offered me, and I felt I've got a pretty good show, I think. I haven't like completely written it yet. But yeah, like, it's the makings of a pretty good show. So because I had the show I was like 'alright, might as well do it then'.

Brianna (TBP)
[Laughs] 'Might as well, if you're gonna pay for me, I may as well go off and do it.' So, what's it about, then? You mentioned class, it's called 'Natives'. What's in it?

Kai Samra
So it's about a few things. So I'm writing it at the moment. So basically, it's a little bit about my granddad's journey. So he's from India, Punjab in India. And he was like, basically an orphan. And he went on, I mean, just this mad journey, like illegally came to England, built a raft with his mates to be able to go to work, traveled 3000 miles to get to Kenya, like just to work! It's just like a crazy story.

Brianna (TBP)
That’s wild.

Kai Samra
And then my journey from like, no wait sorry, so then he came to Birmingham, and he met Malcolm X, because Malcolm X came to Birmingham.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah!

Kai Samra
Yeah, it's something that not a lot of people know. And he was like, my hero. So it's a bit about that. And then my granddad did quite a lot of stuff in terms of like unions and stuff and just like helping other people of colour. And then it's kind of like a 'Godfather II' type thing, where it's like his journey and then it mixes with my journey. So when I was younger I was at a place called Centerpoint, it was a youth homeless shelter. So I went from there, to then doing music first.

Brianna (TBP)
Okay.

Kai Samra
Then with the Roundhouse in Camden, they helped and had a little scheme where they got people from that background and gave them instruments and we were in this band. We did pretty well and then all this other stuff happened outside doing stand up, and then I talk a bit about the Tommy Robinson interview that I did. And then at the end, I basically go back to India and see where my granddad grew up and stuff so it's like a bit of a, like, two different stories. Yeah, two stories sort of, like, intertwined into this big story. So yeah, I feel like it's a, yeah, it'll make for a pretty decent show, I think, I'm pretty proud of it.

Brianna (TBP)
It sounds good!

Kai Samra
Yeah, it has been. I did a preview yesterday at Soho Theatre and yeah, it was all right. Except I felt bad, because, because it's not been written yet, I kind of riff off the top of my head a little bit. I accidentally - I don't even, I don't even know why I said it! I said something about, like, LBC radio presenters so I was like, 'yeah, most of them are just, like, massive racists' and then one of them DM'd me, like this really famous LBC presenter - he was in the audience!

Brianna (TBP)
Stop! [Laughs]

Kai Samra
To be fair, she was like, a person of colour, and stuff. But she was like, she was like 'I love the show, bit less about the LBC presenter bit!' and I was like, 'fuck!' I didn't even know! But yeah, apart from that it was like going good. Yeah, I feel like the story is good. Just need to punch it up a little bit. But yeah, excited about it.

Brianna (TBP)
So what's the plan after Edinburgh? You're going to do a national tour with it?

Kai Samra
Yeah, so what we were thinking was, I think we're gonna go and take it to India with Soho Theatre. Yeah, cuz they've got a theater in Mumbai. And they do a lot of stuff in India, basically. So kinda want to do that, do a little national tour, hopefully with like, the Arts Council.

Brianna (TBP)
That sounds amazing.

Kai Samra
And then like, we've got like a BBC pilot and stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
Oh, wicked.

Kai Samra
We've kind of already got that. But like, afterwards, we know we'd want to concentrate on just the usual stuff, like 'Live at the Apollo' like, Frankie Boyle's show. Just get on those. But yeah, just the idea of it, Edinburgh! Just the idea of going anywhere for a month in the rain is not exactly ideal. That's the thing is like you wasted your summer in Edinburgh. And I love Edinburgh as a town, but the first time I went I was excited about going to Edinburgh, and then obviously you go during the Fringe and it's just like, full of London Drama school students, so you're like, 'this is not the vibe I was hoping for.' Like you're not really seeing much the town, I don't think. But um, yeah, yeah, I feel like there's a bit of pressure and stuff, you know, you want to get good reviews and all that. But yeah, just I don't know. I always say like, Edinburgh Fringe - it really stands on kind of how left wing and liberal it kind of is, but it's a sort of environment where like, middle class white kids are like, 'I don't even see colour'. And then you look at their actual friends. And you're like, 'Yeah, I don't see much of it either.'Just like, yeah, middle-class white people who think they're down with the culture because they’ve listened to a few Kendrick Lamar tunes, or something like that.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, big Stormzy fan, so they clearly understand it all.

Kai Samra
Also the thing is like, I'm from from Handsworth in Birmingham. So like, I never - I say this in my last show - I've never really kind of like experienced racism or anything because everyone I grew up with was like Black or Asian. You know, it's a really diverse sort of - you can't really be racist or anything in Handsworth, you'd just be knackered, like everyone is Black or Asian. Like in my school there was maybe like two or three white people. So I've never been in that environment where - I feel like a lot of comedians will talk about how they experienced racism when they were kids and stuff. But I didn't really, because like I said, I grew up in Birmingham in Handsworth. So I only probably realised it like now, like, going into places like the Edinburgh Fringe and like that kind of like microaggressions, or like there's unconscious biases and stuff, like, it's crazy. So this is - I remember the first time I went to it, I won't say the person's name, but like. So the first time I went -the first day I went - to the Edinburgh Fringe, I was at Pleasance Courtyard and, there was a production company, and they were all actually my mates, they were a production company I was gonna go with if I didn't go with Soho Theatre, like a live production company that does take shows to Edinburgh. And they had one of their acts that was there. So I said hello to them all because obviously I knew them. And they introduced me to this person, and this person was one of the acts, and they were just like shaking hands with everyone. And they were like, 'Oh, this is Kai' and then, like, I put my hand out. And then they were like, 'oh, I'd rather not', right, to me. And I was like, 'what?' And then they were like, 'Oh, this is, this is Kai, like he's going up with Soho, he's at Pleasance, he's a comedian', and they went 'Oh, sorry! I thought he was just a flyerer.’ Like I just like, that was the first, literally the first time in Pleasance Courtyard. Like, obviously I was the only non-white kid there, like 'what the hell?' I just remember feeling that a lot during Edinburgh Fringe. That's why I'm a bit like, I dunno, it's a bit- the idea of going again. I mean, obviously I feel like I was kind of a newbie it was one of my first shows in the year, but it still is a bit weird.

Brianna (TBP)
There's never been a massively diverse lineup there, like, even if you think about the, the comedians that have become very successful from it. They're pretty much all white.

Kai Samra
Yeah, definitely. I was saying this before like, because I definitely didn't want to go to Fringe. Right. So I supported Guz Khan a couple of weeks ago. He's from my area, I'm from Birmingham but then moved to Coventry. And you know, like Guz Khan, Mo Gilligan, Munya Chawawa, like all them people, like, Big Zuu, all these people that are doing so well that are like people who come from working class backgrounds. They never did Edinburgh Fringe, they never did any of that kind of stuff. They all kind of just do it through social media and stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah.

Kai Samra
So, I think, even now you know, there may there may be a couple of Black and Asian acts here and there, but then a lot of them, like, work in the industry or went to Cambridge or Oxford or are from different environments from me, so yeah, maybe that was kind of why I was slightly reluctant about going. To be fair, even after last time, I was like, 'I've got my principles, I've got my work. I'm not going to go to Edinburgh even if someone paid me!', and then Soho Theatre were, like, 'we'll pay', and then suddenly, I'm like 'how much?' [laughs] But um, but yeah, I feel like I moan about it. But I'm fortunate. Like, obviously, I've got the funding for it so I'm pretty lucky. Shouldn't moan, to be fair. But I just don't think I would go if I had to pay for it. Yeah, definitely wouldn't.

Brianna (TBP)
You should definitely try and do the streaming thing though, because audiences that you're more interested in actually seeing it will be able to watch it without having to traipse up to Edinburgh.

Kai Samra
Well, that's the thing. I remember like when the when the Amazon thing come out, it was really nice. Like, I still get five, six DMs a day, just like constantly for the last, like, however many months and they're really, really lovely DMs. But the amount of DMs that say like 'I've actually never watched an hour stand up show before', or like, 'I've never been to Edinburgh Fringe, or gone to theatre to watch, like, comedy for an hour, like an hour of comedy.' So, I think Fringe and theatres need to do more with attracting them sort of people.

Brianna (TBP)
100%.

Kai Samra
Because I think, yeah, like, they're the most interesting stories. Honestly, like a lot of Fringe shows I went to go see were just - they weren't talking about anything, which was boring. I never had like a comedy hero or anything though. I wasn't really into comedy growing up, especially back in the day, we watched like Mock the Week and stuff. I was like, 'who are these people?' I just didn't care. I just didn't think any of them were cool or like me or anything.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah.

Kai Samra
Yeah, so there never was this thing, I never was like a massive comedy fanatic. Like at all. I suppose now it's getting a little bit better, but I feel like still like a long way to go and stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
I remember when I first saw Dane Baptiste, I was like, 'this is sick'. Like, there's a comedian that's not white.

Kai Samra
Yeah, no, it's mad. It's mad. Like, it's so slow. Also sometimes I have meetings and they're like - I've had meetings with a load of management companies. And there's never been one person of colour working in any of those organisations. And when you have like, showcases they're all old white people in their 60s. I’m like 'how do you know anything?' Like, even like, so I'm 29 and I feel old!

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah!

Kai Samra
I'm not even on TikTok or anything. And I'm like, 'God, I'm like, I feel like I'm not down with what's cool and stuff.' And I see them, and I'm like, 'How do you know anything?'

Brianna (TBP)
No you’re right, they’re so far removed from the audience they’re trying to sell too.

Kai Samra
Crazy. But that was actually one of the reasons which kind of made it exciting about like, you know, doing, doing stand up, you know, because it felt like me talking about my background just made me unique. I think like growing up at Centrepoint, a youth homeless shelter and stuff. I feel like not a lot of comedians are from that background. But obviously, it's not that unique to me, because I'm from there. So I don't think that's that, you know, that unique. But I think when you see everyone else, and they're all like Cambridge students, like, I'm automatically different.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, definitely. And I think you're well positioned because observational comedy is what people eat up at the minute. I mean, I would say for the last 10 years, that's the comedy that people have loved. And you've got a completely different viewpoint to pretty much anyone else on the scene at the minute.

Kai Samra
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I do kind of. The thing is, it's just like, it's, you know, like, it's so expensive to get into Edinburgh Fringe. So like the fact that it's so expensive, just like takes out so many people.

Brianna (TBP)
Definitely.

Kai Samra
Even after, you know, like I said, we've got the Amazon thing, got the BBC pilot, that VICE show - I wouldn't have gone this year. Like, I definitely wouldn't have gone if I wasn't getting it funded, and without sounding arrogant, I think I'm doing alright as well, and even I wouldn't have put that amount of money. I think it's just like, a bit of a waste, you know? To drop 10 grand, like 10, 15 grand? I don't understand how anybody can afford that to be fair, like, it's kind of crazy, even if you're doing all right, like, you know, that's still an insane amount of money.

Brianna (TBP)
For a month as well. Like, it's a huge amount just for 1 month.

Kai Samra
Exactly. Especially because a lot of this, a lot of this industry is like who you know and stuff, as well. Like I feel like a lot of - So there's a girl, I'll give her a little shout out, she’s not a girl, she’s a woman, called Saima Ferdows, do you know her?

Brianna (TBP)
I don't think I do.

Kai Samra
She's amazing, she’s a huge champion of people of colour and stuff. She's just amazing. She like, I think she directed Sophie Duker's show, her debut show, and she directed my Amazon special. And she's like my sister basically. And she works with Tiger Aspects - me knowing her got me in touch with all the commissioners and lik the Amazon Commissioner who's an Asian woman called Fozia Khan who helped me get my Amazon special. It was always like, people of colour. Once you find those people, and you're good, like, they will support you. But it's hard finding those people you know. It's, it's kind of crazy. So I feel like yeah, just dropping 10 grand on something which is just like, potluck, whether you're gonna get something out of it is, it's like mind boggling. It's kind of crazy.

Brianna (TBP)
And also in the world of social media, there's probably better ways to market yourself, then going to Fringe.

Kai Samra
100%. Well, so how have you found social media and stuff?

Brianna (TBP)
Well, so that's how my platform started, as an Instagram platform. And like you say, it's who you know, I happened to have Reggie Yates follow me very early on in the birth of the program. And he just happened to say yes to something I suggested to him. And as a result of that, I ended up that I now work with Leigh-Anne Pinnock. And then through that, you get so many different opportunities, it is literally who you know, but it was social media that got that for me. I didn't thankfully have to spend a penny on any of it. But yeah.

Kai Samra
That's so nice. Like people who are in those positions still chat. I feel like it's so important to do that like, because like - I do mentoring stuff with kids from Centrepoint, and I'm starting to do things with Cardboard Citizens as well. And like, when you have those meetings with them, you're just basically like, it is who you know, like 'DM me and I can hook you up with that person.' But, I, I remember when I started out, I didn't have a clue how anything worked, I didn't know how to get a TV pilot, I didn't know how to get a TV show, I didn't know how to get management - anything - like it was kind of painful. So I think like, when you've been through that, and I felt like there wasn't a lot of people supporting me at the start. I think then when you started getting stuff, I feel like it's kind of important to give back and stuff. But yeah, that's amazing that they did that for you.

Brianna (TBP)
Especially in our communities, like when it's so hard to get opportunities anyway.

Kai Samra
Yeah, I felt like that at the start. I felt like, because for so long there's been comedians who've been going for 10 years, who are so talented who never got those opportunities. They start, like, being competitive with their own, with other acts, and I hate that and stuff. So I think people like Saima really, like, kick the door open. She's helped me like so much. And I think that's really important.

Brianna (TBP)
Definitely, 100%. We have to do that. So why, may I ask, did you decide to interview Tommy Robinson?

Kai Samra
So it, wasn't, it wasn't my decision. It was like, a VICE thing. It's on the Amazon special that's on Amazon Prime. But basically, we - it was meant to be for a series.

Brianna (TBP)
Right.

Kai Samra
So the whole point of it was like, I was supposed to interview people who were like the opposite of me, like politically and stuff. So like, yeah, so the first, the first pilot of that was like, yeah. I was a bit chill, and they were like, 'Oh, we've got an interview set up for you.' And I was like, 'With who?' They're like, 'Tommy Robinson.' And I was like, 'what the fuck?' I like, yeah, it was kind of insane. And then yeah, so that was pretty scary. Because he represents obviously a lot of things to me - and I talk about it in the next show - because my granddad had a scar because he got beaten up by the National Front in the race riots in Birmingham in the 60s, yeah. And like, in my area there was like a famous campaign, a Tory campaign which said “If you want a colored person for a neighbor, vote Liberal or Labour.” (Note: The campaign used the n word, but Kai adjusted for the fact he’s not Black when describing it. Be like Kai.) They put leaflets through my nan's letterbox and stuff, so he like represents all those things. But basically the premise of the show was a bit about like trauma and stuff. So like, yeah, he obviously is obviously very, he says loads of racist stuff in it. But then, when I was like, at the end, I was like, 'Oh, like were you ever bullied or anything?' And he was like, 'Yeah', and I was like, 'Were the bullies Muslim by any chance?' And he was like, 'Yeah, they were all Muslim' and I'm like ‘but I'm sure that had no further repercussions.’ And then it was just like, oh, if you go back and talk to that little boy now like what would you say, and he just got so angry like, he was like, 'I'd tell him to stop being a little pussy and stick up for himself.' It was like so clear he just hadn't resolved this, like, trauma. And not like not showing, obviously not showing any empathy towards him, but I just think it's interesting. Obviously he's a bad person. He's done loads of bad things. But also, like, I think there's a reason people are like that. I find that interesting. Like why people are the way they are and stuff? Yeah, so it was a bit about that. So yeah, that was like the kind of interesting thing at the end of it. But yeah, I talk about it a bit more in the show and stuff just because it's kind of interesting- it kind of fits in with this next show where I talk about my Grandad. So even though I talked about in the last show, I kind of talk a little bit more about it in the next show as well, just because it kind of fits in perfectly. But yeah, that was like a weird one. Definitely a weird one.

Brianna (TBP)
Literally, I can't even imagine being in a room with someone like that, let alone how it would have been to actively engage.

Kai Samra
Yeah, we did a bit of research. And we found out like, the best thing you'll hear like, so basically, about 10 years ago, he had a real job. And his real job is he genuinely owned a tanning salon. And I just love that, so not only does he want to kick out a brown people, he wants to make them as well! [laughter] And then we go in and we were in Luton, and because like he can't go around in public because he'd just get his head kicked in. So we had this like secret location. And I swear like, I was similar to you. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to do it. And like some people were like, you know, you shouldn't put a platform on people like that and all that kind of stuff, you know, so I was super nervous. And then I was like, I'm not sure if I can do this for the producer. And then this like massive truck came with like tinted out windows and he come out with like six of his mates. And they were like six foot three, 280 pounds, tattoos everywhere, like slicked back hair, and I swear to God, like every single one of them had just a lovely tan. [laughter] It was just a mad experience. And then he was like he was going on about like, how immigrations ruining this country and all this and all that. He was talking more about, like Muslim immigration and stuff. And then at the end, ordered room service and stuff, and he genuinely ordered a chicken tikka masala. I just like died laughing like, it was just a really weird experience. But kind of lends itself quite well to the show. It was weird as well, because it wasn't like a huge, it was only me, a cameraman and the sound guy - and then all of his mates so I’m like, they could just jump me here because it's like -

Brianna (TBP)
It’s just you.

Kai Samra
Yeah, exactly. It felt like, you know when you watch something on screen and you feel like you're in a safe environment. And I'd never been on screen really like, especially to do interviews. So it was like all of his mates like all around with like, you know, and obviously, I was the only person of colour right in that room and stuff. It was proper intimidating that, like pretty intimidating actually, it was pretty scary. And all of his mates were there as security, just proper nutjobs. And they were like 'Where you from?' as in like..

Brianna (TBP)
~where are you from~

Kai Samra
Yeah, you know there's gonna be an echo. 'Like, where are you from from?' Like, yeah, it was. It was weird. And also because I'd only been doing stand up for like, six months. If I started now I feel like I’d be much better in those situations. But back then it was like, I was so, so like, nervous. It was mad, but yeah, like a good - not like a good experience but you know when like something's that scary. And then you come through it. And you're like I've been through that I can deal with anything.

Brianna (TBP)
What can't you handle if you've managed to handle Tommy Robinson?

Kai Samra
I know, and we were there for a couple of days. Like it was like a long thing. So it was like, yeah, not a great experience but then you feel like, okay, I can I can do a lot more like, you grow up a bit like, skins a bit tougher.

Brianna (TBP)
Definitely. I do still think you're mad for saying yes, but -

Kai Samra
[laughs] I know, I was really unsure about doing it. Because obviously like, I get it, and also I get like, you know, - it wasn't like I was platforming him, I gave as good as I got like I think I come across well because I proper put him down. Because also, his arguments are so like, terrible and so fallible it's just ridiculous. It was quite easy to - it was a lot easier than I thought it would be actually. Because you know how some people are good at arguing? Even if their point is wrong they’re just good at coming at you? Just really good at arguing. Yeah, he wasn’t. So it was quite easy to make him look a bit stupid. It wasn’t as tough as I thought it was going to be actually.

Brianna (TBP)
It's funny that you say he admitted he'd had like quite a lot of bullying as a kid from like Muslim students because I remember when I was studying psychology I found out about, you go through like three stages - the child ego, the adult ego and the parent ego - as you’re like, developing. And if you don't heal trauma, you will stay stuck in the child stage and it influences how you react. So he was very much like a child that hasn't processed things, doesn't understand the root of things can't compartmentalize things. And that's so much like, what not just Tommy Robinson does, but so many people in that sort of group.

Kai Samra
100%. And I feel like, so I do a lot of mentoring and stuff, usually with young men at Centrepoint. And they're all amazing by the way, but some of them are like, if somebody looks at them funny, they’ll have a fight. And like, I always think a lot of it is like, you know, maybe they had a stepdad who abused them when they were a kid. And they were like, almost too scared to stand up for themselves. And they're probably still in that child mode. And they go, 'I'm never gonna let that happen to me again'. And then you overcompensate and like, sometimes it just hits your fight or flight where like, someone will look at you funny. You just remember that bit of trauma. And then just the fight or flight comes in. When I was kid, I was quite aggressive. You know, because you're used to having, like you said, you haven't resolved your trauma or whatever. But like talking about that helps. I feel like Edinburgh was quite traumatic like, honestly. You know, those things like 'I thought you were just a flyerer' - even if that person meant that as a genuine mistake, it's like, those things in your head impact you so that's why I'm actually genuinely quite nervous about going to Edinburgh. It's always easier said than done when those things happen to you. Just to resolve stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
It's a really hard thing to do.

Kai Samra
Yeah. 100% and I think like, I probably never really experienced that, like, in terms of like race or anything or class growing up because like I said, growing up in Handsworth, my mates I think there was like one white guy. So like, I never ever felt like I was the minority, like ever. But yeah, doing stand up. Even like, when I was doing music - so we were in a band, I was the only Asian person in the band, but because it was just us four it didn't seem like, I didn't really feel it because I'm not going to feel it between my mates like there's only four of us. But then I think when you do stand up and you're, you're like being represented by these like management companies, and they're doing stuff and they have their preferential clients, so they'll take stuff and then give it to that person and you're like, ‘hold on, there's like, not one person of colour.’ That's why when I met Saima she's doing amazing work. Like she's produced Netflix shows, she’s a producer at Tiger Aspect, you know, they do like Peaky Blinders and Man Like Mobeen. To be honest, like everything I've ever got has always come from an Asian or Black commissioner. Like they’ve essentially given me everything and even with Soho theatre, it's not necessarily Soho theatre. It's the exec whose Dad's half Indian. And he is a quarter Indian. He's got some connection. It's always been that like, so. I think a big, big advice I always give to people is - similar to you - just find out people that are like, similar to you. And hopefully they will champion you and stuff. Because it's weird. Whenever I meet like a big commissioner and they’re an Asian commisioner - there’s a woman called Pinki Chambers who does Live At The Apollo and all that, Have I Got News For You - and when I meet her, we just bond instantly, just because we're usually the only, even though she's super high up, she's the only other Asian that I'll see in the room, just trauma bonds. [laughs]

Brianna (TBP)
It literally is though! [laughs]

Kai Samra
And it's like, and everyone's a bit scared of her and stuff like, because - not scared of her, she's lovely. But like, she's in a very big position. But we just kind of like bond instantly and stuff. And it's like, you think, oh, that's what people must be like if you went to Eton or something?

Brianna (TBP)
Literally that’s how it is.

Kai Samra
It's like 'Oh my god, you went to that place?!', and you just bond. I'm guessing that’s how it must be, but like, yeah I think like a big thing was meeting Saima and other people of color in big positions. They've like massively, massively helped me.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah. That's why it's so important. When we say like representation matters. It's not just like, us watching TV and seeing people that look like us, it's actually having them in positions to make a difference.

Kai Samra
Exactly. And the thing is as well like, you just can't, you can't like stick an Asian person on telly and expect us all to be happy, it depends on who it is. I always say, like I said in my show that there's no young Asian kids like dreaming of a better life with like a poster of Sajid Javid on the wall like, who cares? It’s like, 'Oh there's an Asian person', like, oh, that's diversity and it’s like, Priti Patel, like, Why would I care about that? It’s done more harm than good. Like, you can't just like stick an Asian person on the telly and just like, be like, 'Oh, we've done our job. We've ticked the boxes.' No, it depends on who that person is. It's like, the difference between diversity and representation, like positive representation you don't just want like, Citizen Khan or something like that, you know? But um, yeah, so I think that's a big thing. Like, yeah, like you said, actually having people in significant positions that can make actual change and you know, be good people as well.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, not like absolute arseholes. Not like Harvey Weinstein types.

Kai Samra
Because literally, yeah, exactly that.

Brianna (TBP)
So I got like, four minutes until Zoom is gonna kick us out. Anything you want to promote? BBC pilot?

Kai Samra
It hasn't come out. We haven't started doing that yet. So I'll say the Amazon Prime special called 'Underclass'. Yeah, so that's on Amazon Prime. I'm doing some work in progresses leading up to Edinburgh Soho theatre and stuff. If you go into my Instagram, @KaiSamra there's a little link tree, it's basically just got everything on that. But yeah, thank you so much.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, no, thanks for giving me your time. It's been good.

Kai Samra
Thanks! So how's your day looking anyway?

Brianna (TBP)
I'm booked off because Stranger Things came out. So I told everyone I was busy today, so I could watch it.

Kai Samra
I've never watched it, so do I need to get on it?

Brianna (TBP)
You have to get on it. Yeah, the first season is dry. Like I'm gonna be honest. I didn't get it on the first season. Everyone was like 'it's the best show'. I was like, 'Is it though?' Then I watched the second season. I was like, Okay, I get it now.

Kai Samra
Is there a third season?

Brianna (TBP)
We're on four now!

Kai Samra
Okay, yeah. It's on my list of things. It's just like, I've got so many things to watch. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, Stranger Things is - I’m definitely gonna watch that. But thank you so much. Are you gonna binge watch the whole thing?

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah. It was only two episodes. So they've split it into two. So they did like seven episodes, I think in May. And now like, it's the last two episodes, but they're like two and a half hours long each.

Kai Samra
Really?

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, they're like feature film length.

Kai Samra
That's amazing. I prefer that. I don't want like one episode every week.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I hate that, don't give me every week. I can't live that way.

Kai Samra
I know. I'm the same. But honestly, thank you so much for having me on the podcast and stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, for sure.

Kai Samra
Give me a shout if you go to Edinburgh and stuff.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I definitely will and I'll tag you when I put this up.

Kai Samra
Amazing. Thank you so much was so lovely chatting to you. Enjoy Stranger Things.

Brianna (TBP)
[laughs] I will, thank you! Enjoy the rest of your day.

(Disclaimer: I did not enjoy Stranger Things, #JusticeForEddie)

Kai is at Edinburgh Fringe with Natives from 3rd-14th, 16-28th of August. Get tickets here. And if you’d like to see some other diverse voices whilst you’re there, check out this list I put together.