ICW: Ayana Gray

Back at the start of July I was invited to a Penguin panel in London celebrating women in YA, and their upcoming books. I already shared with you last week my chat with Natasha Bowen about her book Skin of the Sea, and now I’m back with more! I also had the pleasure of speaking with Ayana Gray about her book Beasts of Prey, the first in a trilogy that is being adapted for Netflix! I loved this chat, Ayana was so wonderful to talk with, and having read way more of the book? Go and buy it immediately, it’s a delight.

Brianna (TBP)
Hey! How are you?

Ayana Gray
Good! It’s my first time in England so I’m enjoying it.

Brianna (TBP)
Really! How long have you been here?

Ayana Gray
I flew into Manchester Tuesday morning at like 6.45am.

Brianna (TBP)
Was the jet lag like hitting or were you alright?

Ayana Gray
Going forward is always easier than going backwards. I went up six hours.

Brianna (TBP)
And I guess a nighttime flight is okay, because you can just kind of sleep like you would at night and when you land it’s just like Oh, cool it’s morning.

Ayana Gray
And I got here and then I like got to my hotel and slept. So that helped. I feel like yesterday sort of hit me like I was awake, but I needed to be sleeping. So now I'm like, I feel like I should be sleeping. But yeah, so it's weird.

Brianna (TBP)
It's a weird one. So I've literally just started Beasts of Prey for this month. I'm not deep into it yet so -

Ayana Gray
I won't give any spoilers!

Brianna (TBP)
Don't give any spoilers but sell it to me.

Ayana Gray
Okay. Well, I can do it a few different ways. So like, I pitched it in the tweet - like the way it got discovered was a Twitter contest called #DVpit for stories from diverse backgrounds, and I pitched it as black Arya Stark meets King of Scars, if you’ve read Leigh Bardugo’s books, that's how I used to pitch it. But it is two black teens kind of from different backgrounds - one’s a peacekeeper, one is a warrior in training, different walks of life - they kind of unexpectedly meet, decide very reluctantly to form this alliance and go into this magical jungle to try to find a monster that has been killing people for nearly a century. They go into this jungle, and everything just, their whole plan falls apart. And they discover much more than they expected in this jungle. And then adventure ensues.

Brianna (TBP)
It sounds so exciting!

Ayana Gray
Yeah, that’s Beasts of Prey.

Brianna (TBP)
Why do you think YA is a genre that - like I'm 25, I'm not the target audience. But I eat that up.

Ayana Gray
Yeah! Me too, I’m 29.

Brianna (TBP)
I just love it. Why do you think it appeals to people even if they're not in that 12 to 19 bracket?

Ayana Gray
Yeah, I mean, I say a lot that I think like in YA it's like they're dealing with sort of adult problems, or beginning to deal with adult problems. They're trying to figure out their place. Like they're still kind of, they're still children, but like, they're more aware children. And also, like, you think about your teens, and it's one of the most emotionally intense times of your life. And like I remember being 17 so vividly - more than I remember being 7! And that just resonates with people, you remember feeling like, everything was the end of the world, first loves and first hates, and like real stress for the first time in your life. Yeah, these decisions that will impact the rest of your life, you start to have to make those decisions when you're 16, 17, 18. So I think it just appeals to a lot of people because they've been through it. You're either going through it if you’re a teenager, or you're heading towards it if you're like a preteen, or you've lived it and now it's nice to like, relate back to and be like, Yes, I felt that way too when I was this age.

Brianna (TBP)
Also, there’s a lot of escapism in it, more so than any sort of adult books.

Ayana Gray
I think in YA fantasy especially. And also with YA fantasy, you get the big epic fantasy feel, but it's quick. Like, I've tried to read adult fantasy sometimes. And I just find it to be really dense and slow. YA fantasies, you get the world building and the cool magic, but it's quick.

Brianna (TBP)
It's very quick. Yeah. Like personally, I don't think I could ever read the Game of Thrones books.

Ayana Gray
I'm listening to Game of Thrones, like the first book, but I had to do audio because the first few times I tried to read it, just you know, in paperback it was - yeah.

Brianna (TBP)
Why is it that big.

Ayana Gray
I just I couldn't get into it. But audio has been really nice. But yeah, that book like you really have to invest. It's a big book.

Brianna (TBP)
It's a big, big book.

Ayana Gray
Lots of characters and lots of subplots. And it's, you know, YA is similar but a little I think more condensed down.

Brianna (TBP)
And I think - I have ADHD and I think YA really works for kind of, if you're older, but you've got a neurodivergency, it really - you can get into it. You're not having to go through pages and pages and pages, and you're like, where’s the content?

Ayana Gray
When are we going to get to the story.

Brianna (TBP)
Yes! When are we getting into it? So for me, like as an interviewer, I remember distinctly watching Graham Norton interview Robert Downey Jr. and Jude Law, and I said, I want to do that. What was the book for you that you were reading it and you went “This is what I'm gonna do?”

Ayana Gray
It wasn't - ah, well, let's say there were books. But the things that had a big impact were movies actually like Studio Ghibli movies. So Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke are two of my favourites and just like how, for me, when I watch those movies, I'm transported and I feel like I'm somewhere else. And I wanted to, like make that story like put that in book form. It's a hard thing for me to talk about now, but I won't - I don't like to retcon my life. But like the Harry Potter books were a really big influence on me.

Both
(Point out Harry Potter tattoo’s)

Ayana Gray
I really hate like, how the creator of the series has just pretty unnecessarily, really tarnished books that meant a lot to people. And I remember like getting lost in those books and really enjoying them. The good news is she's not the only option. And now there are lots of creators - who don’t make these really like transphobic comments and do these horrible things - that are contributing. So those books were big, like, Chronicles of Narnia, I loved those books.

Brianna (TBP)
I loved that too.

Ayana Gray
A lot of the books I liked when I look back, a lot of them were, they had animals in them. There's another one called the Redwall series, which is like Game of Thrones, but all animals. What I wanted to do was write a story where a reader could get lost in a big, big world. That's what I knew I wanted to do even when I was young.

Brianna (TBP)
As soon as I opened it, and I saw a map. I was like, This is it, I’m in. You’ve sold me already.

Ayana Gray
Yeah! Yeah, it’s vibes, maps are vibes.

Brianna (TBP)
I also think, like I mentioned, downstairs, we are in just hideous times, really horrible, really bad. And there's something really beautiful even as an adult about the escapism of these books, no matter how bad things get, there is always a solution. I think that hope is really important. As a writer, how do you hold on to that hope to put it into your stories?

Ayana Gray
Yeah. And you know, what you just said too like, I very deliberately wrote this story as one where, look, you have a character who has OCD, you have two characters who have dealt with grief and loss, and different traumas for certain, but not traumas based on the colour of their skin. That was a very deliberate choice, because I think kids, especially black kids, deserve to read books. Black kids, kids of colour, deserve to read books where it's not just about them dealing with or battling racism, like give kids, and give adults who were looking for escapism, a break. That's happened to me where I'm reading a book to escape. And then I have to, you know, combat racism in the story. And I'm like, well, now I'm not escaping it. And I'm taken out of it and brought back to the real world. And it's not, it's not fun.

Brianna (TBP)
I literally just read a book called The Attic Child by Lola Jay. And it's about - when I read the synopsis, it was two kids across two different time periods, who spent a lot of time in the same attic. I’m like that sounds interesting, like the one in the future was finding out about the one in the past by like little signs they left. Until I found out the little kid in the past was taken as like a colonial trophy from Africa. And I'm like, midway through, I'm like, this is horrible. I’m just upset now.

Ayana Gray
And we should talk about these things. Like I'm not saying we should not have stories about them. I'm not, just those shouldn't be the only stories where a black kid can find themselves. They should get to have magical adventures, where, you know, blackness is a part of the story, but it's not like they're not having to deal with racism.

Brianna (TBP)
It's not a negative part of the story. Just yeah. And I love what you were saying about your brother, I think, you know, as important as it is for us as black women. I think there's something really - it's just a different experience as a black man, I think. Even as a tiny little boy, you're demonised. And I think that's - It breaks my heart to think about. And I think even sometimes in fiction, that can still be the case that the black male characters are still - Comedic relief, disposable. Or aggressors, or like gang leaders, I think I'm really excited to get into yours and see a young boy, that's just a boy.

Ayana Gray
It's not a spoiler, but Ekon likes books, I wrote that, and gave him a little piece of myself. He's someone who would much rather be in a library. And, you know, kind of how black boys from a very young age, especially black boys, are told to kind of grow up fast, and you need to be a man. And here's all these really toxic ideas about what it means to be a man. And so, you know, it's kind of offering a space for the black boys who don't like to necessarily like fight and get in the dirt and be this way. You know, they enjoy books, they enjoy puzzles, they enjoy math, they enjoy school, like there's a space for you too.

Brianna (TBP)
That’s so perfect, I’m so happy you’ve done that. I don't know how much time we’ve got left, so I'm going to ask what would normally be my last question, just to make sure I get it and then come back. What does it mean to you to be black?

Ayana Gray
Oh, it means I stand on the shoulders of giants. I'm obsessed with genealogy because it's really, genealogy is storytelling, right? And because of some really cool things like ancestry.com, I've been able to find a lot of primary records. And I remember seeing some records from like my great many times over grandparents, some of them were the children of slaves. Some of them were slaves, and reading like, name, blah, blah, blah, but seeing like, “able to read and write: no.” And I think about, like, how much they survived and how poorly they were treated. One of my ancestors, I've seen her name in the estate listing next to the animals. And it's when you see it, you're like, that's literally where she was placed in value. But they survived. And each generation, I've seen it, each generation they give a little more and persist and not only survive, but thrive. Because you know, like people in my family have done all these really cool things, like were athletes or singers or did huge things in their community, but always kind of building building building. And I am very aware that I am doing what I'm doing - I am in England, I am getting to talk with you. Because my job is to tell stories. I descend from someone who couldn't read or write. But that's blackness it’s strength, it’s resilience, it’s power. And yeah, I just it's, I get emotional actually, I think about like, how it's just so cool to be black. And I'm just so proud of and so honoured to descend from, from the people that I've descended from.

Brianna (TBP)
Gosh I love that. Someone when I asked it said, blackness for me is being very aware that I'm living my ancestors wildest dreams.

Ayana Gray
That is exactly what it is.

Brianna (TBP)
Like my dad’s surname - I use my mum's now because I just don't like that his surname is a slave name. And I just think I don't want to carry that name. But also the fact that I'm sat here and I'm doing this and I'm free to do this? Like there's two black women sat here, talking about the beauty of storytelling.

Ayana Gray
And storytelling about black people. Yeah.

Brianna (TBP)
And they could never even have imagined anything like that.

Ayana Gray
Being allowed to go to school, like something as basic as being allowed to go to school. It's when you really start to get into it, it can actually kind of, I get a little bit like weighed down thinking about how ugly it really is, how poorly my flesh and blood were treated. But I also know like, I very much believe that they are with me, and as I get older, I feel them, especially my foremothers, I very much feel them with me in certain spaces. And I, I want to believe that they’d be proud. And I wrote - the dedication of Beasts of Prey is “dedicated to the roots from which a flower bloomed.” Because my name means flower. Oh that’s pretty. Thank you. So it's them. They're the roots, and that's why I get to bloom because of them, because of what they did. That's really beautiful. So Netflix series! That’s exciting, how's that coming along? Where are they in the kind of process for that? I always say like, film is slow, you know, especially fantasy because it's special effects, budget and whatever. There's a script. Yeah. The production company that is doing it is the production company that worked on the Hunger Games, right?

Brianna (TBP)
Oh my, Wow.

Ayana Gray
Like, which is wild, but he obviously has experience with taking a YA book and really blowing it up into a big franchise. So yes, production is clubhouse, they're really excited. The screenwriters name is Melody Cooper and she's black woman who loves - she's been to multiple countries in Africa. So she read the book and there’s historical figures from the African continent in the book. And she found them and she knew, and because she knew that I instantly was like her, she's got to write the script. Because she really got what I was trying to do. So she's written a beautiful script that I've gotten to see. As far as I know it is with Netflix. And yeah, so it's it's slow but there's like movement happening and I just I try to focus on the books because that's what I can control.

Brianna (TBP)
When you were writing it, like I'm quite a visual person so when I'm reading a book I cast it in my head. Did you have like a dream cast that if if you'd been the one to have the money and make it yourself this is what you'd have done?

Ayana Gray
It’s kind of formed over time because sometimes I couldn't find a celebrity that looked just right. But I saw Giveon for the first time and I was like, “That's Ekon!” Now Giveon is a singer, I don't know that he acts but like the way he looks? I'm like That's exactly it. So like you know, some is inspired by - it's funny one of the, not a major villain but the the keeper like Koffi’s boss at the night zoo? He's inspired by T-Pain.

Both
(Laugh)

Ayana Gray
I love T-Pain but like he's a like, he had a song called ringleader man, years ago and I thought it was cool to see a black man doing this kind of cool like surreal circus show and that kind of idea is sort of what sparked Baaz. Because Baaz is like this guy that has big jewellery and just over the top.

Brianna (TBP)
Literally like a ringleader.

Ayana Gray
Literally like a ringleader. Exactly. And so like some characters I see really vividly and some I haven't found like the right face yet.

Brianna (TBP)
Books like this they're kind of having their moment at the minute. Like we've got The Gilded One series.

Ayana Gray
Namina, yeah!

Brianna (TBP)
I loved that, I read that book in a day.

Ayana Gray
She's brilliant. She really is.

Brianna (TBP)
The Raybearer series as well. That's another one that I love.

Ayana Gray
Yes, Jordan!

Brianna (TBP)
Skin of the Sea I've just spoken to Natasha about, that sounds amazing. Why do you think people are really resonating with these stories at the minute?

Ayana Gray
It’s been around it's just I think they're finally getting recognised, which is great. First of all, I think, you know, I'm taking myself out of the conversation but Namina, Natasha, Jordan, Shannon Smart like these are authors who are just really talented. And for a long time, you know, we were told - Lauren Blackwood is another who I remember was told. She wrote an Ethiopian inspired fantasy standalone, it’s really good. But she was told, I don't know how to market this, like there's not really a place for basically black fantasy stories. And it’s like, Oh my gosh, people just like a good story whether the character is Black, South Asian, East Asian, Indigenous, like, if it's a good story first of all, like people are gonna want it. And it's, I think people are just feeling like they have finally have the permission and space to tell the stories they want. So now we're seeing stories with lots of queer lead characters and, and black characters and characters who are disabled and like, I don't know, it's Gen Z really demands more authentic storytelling. I think they really, they don't ask they demand it.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, they won't give you their money if they're not getting it.

Ayana Gray
Yeah. So I think there are a lot of different factors happening all at once in this kind of beautiful renaissance. And Namina said to me in the car one time with Jordan, she was like, I feel like we're living through a renaissance.

Brianna (TBP)
You are!

Ayana Gray
And it's kind of wild to be in it.

Brianna (TBP)
It's a beautiful Renaissance, because all of those books are just stunning. And I'm, I'm so glad that yours is a trilogy.

Ayana Gray
Thank you. I'm writing as fast as I can. Book two is out at the end of the month, book three, I’m trying.

Brianna (TBP)
I just like you know, when you've got a really good story, it's almost sad to only have one part to it, so it's nice that you've got loads! Thank you so much for your time.

Ayana Gray
No thank you, I’ve loved this!