ICW: Jessica George, Author of Maame

Back in January I got to sit down with Jessica George and talk to her about her debut novel, Maame, which is out today! Since speaking with her, the book has been made a book club pick of the month on Good Morning America, and is being adapted for screen, so you definitely want to get your hands on a copy. Jessica and I spoke about what drew her to writing, the importance of language to identity, life as an eldest daughter, feeling weird in your mid 20s, and what being Black means to her.

Brianna (TBP)
Congratulations on the book, it is wonderful. I literally read it in about three days, it was so good. So, this struck me as a story that's about a lot. So I was thinking, I'm getting general generational trauma and getting loss, I'm getting the pressure that comes with being the eldest daughter, even if you're not the eldest child. And I'm wondering, before you'd written the book, were those things that you'd kind of processed and come to an understanding of or was the book kind of your way of processing and coming to an understanding of them.

Jessica George
So some of them, some of them I reached understanding of, before I started writing Maame, which was kind of letting go of the responsibilities of being the older daughter and being the people pleaser of the family. But in terms of, I would say, the grief aspect is one that I worked through whilst writing this book.

Brianna (TBP)
So is.. without giving major spoilers in the book, we do see, Maddie submit a piece of writing to a competition, where she writes a fictional version of her and her dad, and in it, the fictional version is called Jess. Which is, for people who don't know you, your name is Jess. Is that - Is it kind of semi auto, Auto biographical? Is this kind of how this book came about? Did you - Is Maddie's Jess, your Maddie?

Jessica George
Yeah! Yeah I guess she is! So it didn't come about in like me writing for a competition. Although, oddly enough, the agent who gets back to her, her name is Eloise, and that's my agents middle name. But I didn't know that. I didn't know that until she said, Oh, by the way, my middle name is Eloise. And the surname is the same, Forrester, my agents name is Jemima Forrester. So that was just a weird thing that happened.

Brianna (TBP)
The Universe is so funny isn't it!

Jessica George
Isn't it! She messaged back saying my middle name was Eloise, did you know that? I said No, you haven't put that anywhere, I wouldn't know unless you told me. So yeah, that was just one thing that I was like, wow, but yeah. So I didn't - I went through my usual route, which is submitting to agents and then submitting to editors. But yeah, I don't actually remember how that kind of book Inception even came about, or why I put that in there, I think. Because I remember when I first started out, she was writing, she was writing some things and wanted to see how that would go. And I remember I got to the end, I was like, I haven't gone back to this thread. I haven't gotten back to the fact that she has been writing. So because I hate loose ends like that, I either said, I'm either going to take it out or I'm going to finish it off somewhere. And so when I decided I'd like to keep it in because it's something Maddie and I have in common, we write, that's what I came up with the idea of okay, well, maybe, you know, she is writing Maame, maybe this is actually her story in a way.

Brianna (TBP)
I loved it. I got to the end, I was like, Oh, this is clever, this is very clever. Which is almost better that it wasn't intentional that you've just got that little spark of genius in you without even thought.

Jessica George
That's a really nice way to put it.

Brianna (TBP)
So I wondered, what are the stories that made you want to be a storyteller?

Jessica George
Oh, wow. Gosh, I think it was more just my enjoyment of reading. I really love to read. And I read really widely and it was just such a great, great hobby to have. Because it's just, it's just very, - I'm an introvert, I enjoy my solitude, so it's just like the perfect hobby to have. But when I was thinking of - I had this moment where I said, I either want to get a job where I like that can enjoy and that I will love and be happy in, or go for a route where I can make the most money. And when I decided to no longer go with the the money route, I was like okay, well you enjoy doing two things you enjoy reading and writing and to be hon- oh and baking, but I didn't see that going anywhere. And so I literally asked myself a question of what can you have a career in reading or writing, and I didn't see how I could do it with reading. But then whilst I was writing, I did start working in publishing industries. So that was a way to keep both of them alive, I guess.

Brianna (TBP)
So that's another thing you have in common with Maddie.

Jessica George
Yes, yeah, publishing industry. It was great to be able to write about the publishing industry because that comes easily. I think when you write about jobs, you have to do a lot of research on it's quite difficult, because I'm doing that for book two. And I'm like, oh my gosh I've got so much to think about, because I can't just write oh, she does this and she does that if it's not true. Whereas in publishing, I could easily just write oh, I know what this means, and I know what that means, and I know what happens here.

Brianna (TBP)
Without like, giving away what you're not allowed to give away is book two in any way related to this book, or is it a new standalone thing?

Jessica George
It is a standalone thing. Completely different, Yeah.

Brianna (TBP)
I'm excited. You're, I think you're a really exciting new writer, I think having worked in publishing, and you've read so much, it's definitely helped. It's been, it's been a minute since I've read like a new book, where I've gone 'oh this is an exciting career to follow.' But yeah, it was. And this isn't so much question as more observation. You know, when we talk about diversity in representation, I think this book is a really important example of why we don't just mean, get black authors get gay authors get whatever. Because the diversity in this, for me also comes from the fact that we're seeing a 25 year old who hasn't hit those kinds of milestone moments that people say, "Oh, we all know how it is. We all know what it's like." And it's like, well, actually, for various reasons, we don't all know what that is. And we're kind of made to feel a bit weird for it.

Jessica George
Exactly.

Brianna (TBP)
This is the first time I think probably ever I'd read a book where I was like, "Oh, I get this, like, all of this is so relatable to me." Did you kind of have that feeling of...Why isn't there stories about just normal people that haven't had those moments? Like, it's not a weird thing.

Jessica George
Yeah, it's so funny, because so I've written six books, and Maame was the only one to get picked up by an editor, an agent and a publishing house. And out of the six books that I've written, I thought I had the least faith in Maame.

Brianna (TBP)
Really?

Jessica George
Because I thought it was so unrelatable because I also hadn't read stories about a 25 year old, still living at home, never had a boyfriend doesn't know what she's doing with her life, doesn't have a career, is a carer for her father, doesn't really have that kind of big friendship group, has never moved out. And so she like Google's, every aspect of her life, you know, has a very unconventional family dynamic, like you said, Isn't the oldest sibling but you know, in terms of responsibility, and perhaps even common sense, she is the oldest one. I just didn't think anyone would, many people at least would relate to that. And so that's why I had the least faith in Maame, which is just so ironic, because it's done the best.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, have you heard that from people? Have you had people coming back and saying 'This was so refreshing.'?

Jessica George
Yeah, I mean, so I got it first from my literary agents, the editors who were reading it, and they were like, We're obviously not 25, we're obviously not black, we're obviously not caring for our fathers. But because you touched on so many themes, there's something everyone who has read it has something to relate to. And I'm, I get the most comments on Instagram maybe because I'm most active there. But I get the most DMS from people who are like, 'I don't have this. I don't have this in common with Maddie. But I have this in common with Maddie.' And so that has been a revelation. Can you imagine if I just thought I'm not gonna submit this because nobody's gonna get it. Can you imagine? So strange.

Brianna (TBP)
Life is so bizarre, the way we just..little moments? Yeah. So strange. So another thing I really, really enjoyed was there's an interesting kind of motif through the book about language and its connection to identity. Right. And it's something that I think about and talk about quite a lot. And I'm wondering kind of where you were with that before writing the book and through the process to now.

Jessica George
Yeah, so I you know, personally, I haven't. So my family language, let's say is Twi, which is a Ghanian dialect. And it's what my parents speak. They speak it to us, they speak it more than English. And it wasn't until maybe when I was writing my fifth book that I realised how strange it is that I can understand every Twi word, but I cannot speak it. I can't hold a conversation. But if you could, you could speak it at such a speed, like 20 miles an hour and I will get every single word. But if you tell me to respond in Twi, I cannot do it. And it wasn't until my you know, my mid 20s myself where I was questioning like how strange I found that basically, even though I've now heard from a lot of people who say "Oh, I'm actually the same. I can't speak the language, but I can understand it perfectly." And I've kind of just been trying to understand where that's come from. And Maddie has that thing where it's like, she is of dual nationality. She was born and raised in London, she spent the most time in London. And then you have her mum, who would call Ghana home because she was born and raised in Ghana. And that's where she feels most comfortable. And there is that question of where do I place myself? And how do I quantify being able to place myself here? Am I Ghanian? Like is Ghana my home if I can't even speak the language, If I haven't been there in that many years? Is London my home because it's on my birth certificate? And it's just the idea of trying to figure out how to blend the two to figure out, you know, what you would feel most comfortable calling home.

Brianna (TBP)
I found it so fascinating, because it's something that in my family again, I'm mixed heritage and my mum's Irish, my dad's Nigerian, Yoruba to be specific. And my mum wasn't allowed to learn her language when she was at school because the British said no. And then my dad could speak Yoruba, but he was like, I don't need to teach the kids Yoruba they don't need that. And my mom was like, it's going to be important to them at some point, because language is kind of the first step to kind of understanding the rest of everything that comes with having a culture. And it's so interesting, because like you say, I'm in my mid 20s now, and I am having those exact same kind of thoughts of like, why don't I know this?

Jessica George
I honestly, I tried to put so much blame on my mum. I was like, "As kids. That's when you should have taught me, because that's when the brain that's when you can take it in." I think she was of the same where it's like, well, you were born here, you're going to live here. Is there really any point? Like so long as you can understand me when I'm when I'm calling you? That's absolutely fine. But yeah, as much as I would love to, to say, "Oh, I wish I knew it." It's yeah, I just have to learn now.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah. But at least you understand it, that will hopefully make speaking it a little bit easier.

Jessica George
Exactly. And we see that with Maddie where it's, some of it is ingrained, just because she knows how to understand it. So some of it, she'll instantly know how to say.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, exactly. Are you going to keep that in the next couple of books? Is that going to be like a thing? Is language going to be important?

Jessica George
Wow, I never really thought about that, actually. To be honest, If I did write a character, I would like to write a character who knows the language. That would be, that would be nice. But how would I do that when I don't know the language? I'm learning but it's very slow. I'm just a very slow learner, the older I get.

Brianna (TBP)
Honestly I feel that, like I'm only in my mid 20s but I do feel like I'm about 56.

Jessica George
Oh my god. I don't know what it is. I was talking to a friend the other day and she said 'Oh it's the pandemic the pandemics aged us all' But honestly, I feel like I go upstairs and I forget what I need. I was thinking of it two seconds ago-Two seconds! I cannot remember. I complain about the cold all the time.

Brianna (TBP)
Oh, all week this week. This weather-not the one. Oh my gosh.

Jessica George
I feel like I've always felt like an old soul to be fair.

Brianna (TBP)
Are you the oldest daughter of your family?

Jessica George
Yes. I'm the only daughter though.

Brianna (TBP)
The only daughter? So I'm the oldest I have a younger sister but I'm still the oldest and I feel like it does it makes you feel really like wise beyond your years.

Jessica George
Exactly. It's so true. That's that's a good reason as well. Like the responsibility you have I think when you're younger, any responsibility you get kind of ages you because you just, you learn how the world works a lot quicker than maybe you're supposed to.

Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, I definitely think so. But despite that, and that does feature heavily in the book, it's also very, very funny. There's a lot of it that just had me cracking up. How do you as a writer know, okay, this is the right level of funny like, how do you go? If I do more, it will kind of take away from the poignancy if I do less it won't hit as much. How do you strike that balance?

Jessica George
Wow, that's a good question. I don't know. I think - I feel I'm not very good at making jokes, like cracking jokes. I think a lot of the funniness in Maame comes from either like sarcasm or you know, the online threads where it's other people highlighting how ridiculous so much is. So if it were more as in like, purposely trying to throw jokes, - and I have very funny friends as well, I think Maddies friends are also the funny ones. And so they're easy to draw on. But yeah, it's about balance. I I really don't know. That's a good question. I mean, I'm glad to hear there is a there is a good balance because..

Brianna (TBP)
It is perfect. It feels real. I think that's what's really great about this book is that it feels like I could go into central London today sit down with someone and say, Tell me your story. And this would be it, this like, you know, it feels really authentic, which is lovely. It was very refreshing to read.

Jessica George
Oh thank you. Authentic is like my favourite compliment so thank you.

Brianna (TBP)
You're welcome. So Maddie's mum. She's hilarious. Is your mum like that? Is she that funny?

Jessica George
So my mum shares the one liners. So as funny as Maddie's mum is, my mum is as funny. Interesting story. I - when I first started writing about Maddie and Maddie's relationship with her dad, because Maddie's relationship with her dad reflects very much my relationship with my dad. I started writing about my mum and my older brother. But my literary agent actually said that they were very boring characters because they were more supportive than Maddies' family. And so my agent was kind of like, they're not adding anything because they're just around. They're very, they're nice, they're supportive. You know, they have their flaws, but their.. their better than Maddies current family members. And so I kind of had to make them caricatures of the people I know. And so whilst thankfully my mum is more supportive than Maddies, they are both equally funny. The one liners from Maddies mum have come from my mum.

Brianna (TBP)
Oh, that must be such crack up. Every single time there was a line from Maddies mum, I was cracking up like literally had to put the book down. Just compose myself because it's just hysterical. I feel like African mums are a bit like that though, aren't they?

Jessica George
Yeah they just have that inside, and sometimes, you know, they don't even realise they're being funny. And we're just all laughing in the background or sometimes it's hindsight. You wait a while. Yeah. That was actually hilarious. Probably troubling and traumatic but hilarious.

Brianna (TBP)
I really also enjoyed the kind of look into African culture, not just Ghanaian, because I think all most African nations do that auntie and uncle thing. Like the bit where one of the uncles comes in and it's like, 'Do you not remember me?' Maddie's like, I literally have no idea who this man is. Not a clue. One of my favourite stories that my brothers - my dad's got two other kids. He lives in Spain now. But he's got two other kids. One of my favourite stories from him is that he goes 'do you know Dad has got so many brothers and sisters?' I was like what are you talking about? He's got one brother and one sister' And he's like 'well who the hell are all these aunties and uncles then?' I was like 'has dad not explained that you're half Nigerian?

Jessica George
It's so funny. I don't know when we, it gets to a point where we realise that because I know for sure I used to think all of my aunties and uncles were blood related. Yeah. Until I don't know when but one day I discovered oh you're not my father's sister. Like you're not my brother's uncle. It's literally I think just a sign of respect, really, this auntie and uncle thing.

Brianna (TBP)
It so is. So what's next for you? So you're working on this new book? Yeah. How far is that in? How is that going?

Jessica George
Yeah. So it's, it's, I'm balancing it with a lot of my stuff. So it's going slower than I intended. But it's I'm really loving the story, because for this one, I'm focusing on platonic female friendship. So like, yeah, I'm so excited about it. And, also the difficulty of making friends the older you get, simply because the friends you have that you probably thought would be there forever, you know, either relocation, career or, you know, they're focusing on romantic relationships, there is always that that drift apart. And I'm really excited as I get to just talk about platonic female friendship over romantic relationships.

Brianna (TBP)
I'm so excited to talk to the person - one of my colleagues - we literally were having this conversation three days ago four days ago about how important it is to just have strong women around you. I love that you've just said thats what the next books about.

Jessica George
Oh, no, the expectation. (laughter)

Brianna (TBP)
Don't even worry. Like it's just the fact that that's the concept. Do you know? Yeah, I don't think that's spoken about enough.

Jessica George
Yeah, I know. That's, that's why it's so, it's taking me a while to get into it. But yeah, I really am loving just writing about how we don't really as a society value friendship over romantic relationships. And yeah, how I explore that is taking a long time.

Brianna (TBP)
Well, good luck with that. I'm really excited to see what's to come.

Jessica George
Thank you so much.

Brianna (TBP)
Okay, so final question I ask everyone that I interview this question. And you kind of explore it a little bit in the book. But what does being black mean to you?

Jessica George
Oh my gosh, wow, nobody's asked me that yet. I mean, it's such a, I have an interesting history because in school, I used to be called Oreo, which is this idea that, depending on how you speak, and how and what you value, and maybe your hobbies, you are perhaps not black enough. And for me, being Black isn't something that I need to reach for. It's just inherent, its genetic code. It's in my DNA. I don't, thankfully don't see the dissonance between how I talk or whatever as a characteristic of being black. I am just a black woman. And I love that for me.

Brianna (TBP)
I love that for you too. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, and also for sharing your story with the world because I think it's a really important story. I think it's going to help a lot of young people, young women especially just feel a little bit less weird about themselves. So yeah, thank you, and congratulations, and good luck with the rest of the kind of press tour and everything.

Jessica George
Oh thank you so much. It was so nice to talk to you!

Maame is out today! Grab yourself a copy here, and support Jessica and The Black Project in one go.