ICW: Jocelyn Bioh, Playwright, Screen Writer and Actor
Back in April TBP got the chance to sit down with Jocelyn Bioh to discuss her upcoming UK premiere, as her play School Girls was preparing for it’s London transfer. We talked the influence of her and her mother’s schooling experience on the show, how 90s sitcoms made her fall in love with storytelling, the unique perspective of being a Black American who knows exactly where their roots are, and more. Check it out below, and then once you have maybe get booking to see the show! You’ve not got long, it’s only running for 5 weeks.
Brianna (TBP)
Let's kind of get into you, the play how it's here. And I kind of want to start with talking about the school that you went to, because I feel like it might be a little bit relevant to the play that you're bringing over?
Jocelyn Bioh
Yeah. Well, yeah, I went to a boarding school when I was 12 years old, called Milton Hershey School. And it's in the middle of a very rural town called Hershey, Pennsylvania. And it's quite different in this particular boarding school because it's actually a free boarding school for children who came from a financially not-so-sound home. And it was created by the man who made Hershey chocolate - he and his wife couldn't have children, and so they donated their entire Trust Fund to this free boarding school essentially for poor kids. So yeah, it's pretty incredible. And my mom found out about the school when I was 11. And I applied and got in when I was 12, and stayed there through the end. It goes all the way from pre-kindergarten through 12th grade. So I guess like early primary school through secondary school, up until you go to college, so I was there the whole time. And, you know, because I think of the nature of the school, it also lent itself to particular communities that really needed it. And so it wound up being a school that was primarily black and brown kids. So I had a very unique experience of going to like a really kind of ritzy boarding school that was free with a bunch of kids, you know, who looked like me, a lot of us were first generation from immigrant families. And it was just the weird, weirdest kind of oddest thing in the middle - I wish I could describe it for you, I wish I had like a British equivalent to what Hershey Pennsylvania is like.
Brianna (TBP)
There isn't one, when I read about it I was like, this is an incredible thing! To go to boarding school here you either have to be like incredibly gifted at something and get a scholarship or just be born rich. Otherwise, that's not happening for you.
Jocelyn Bioh
Yeah, it's a very unique program. And coincidentally my - well not coincidentally, but rather how it worked out is that my mother went to boarding school as well when she was a teenager in Ghana. Both my parents are from Ghana, and she went to the school where the play School Girls is set in. And so we have this weirdly unique kind of thing in common that we both went to a boarding school with a bunch of other Black you know girls and knew what that dynamic was like and so I always knew I wanted to explore that in a play in some sort of way, and just eventually, this idea came to me and I put it all into a play, that's, that's now going to be here. Just really crazy.
Brianna (TBP)
That is so cool, it's amazing. Like it doesn't happen often, you know, like, a play comes from Off-Broadway into London. How did this kind of come about?
Jocelyn Bioh
I mean, you know, look, I mean, the, the real answer is, like, I have really great and amazing, you know, artistic producers who have loved my work and championed my work for many years, and really, you know, wanted to get the play done here in the UK, it's always been a dream of mine, to work here. And, you know, when the play was sent to the Lyric, they just immediately responded to it in a way that felt exciting and felt like they would do their best to honour and make a really incredible production of the play. Understanding and knowing that this was going to be my UK premiere. And, and with the hopes that we could, you know, move it of course too so it's all been really kind of serendipitous in a way it didn't it didn't feel hard, which is why I know it's right.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah. The things that are right should never feel like a struggle, like if it just flows, then it's like the universe has put things in your path for a reason. So, obviously, I haven't seen the play because I'm not in America. Could you give me - without giving spoilers because I do want to come and see it and I don't want to be like completely spoiled for the plot - can you give me a little bit about what it's about?
Jocelyn Bioh
Sure! So School Girls is set in the mid-1980s, at a prestigious boarding school in Ghana, and Paulina is kind of like the queen bee of her crew there. And she's really excited because a Miss Ghana pageant recruiter is coming to the school in search of like a new potential Miss Ghana, and she's certainly a shoo-in, to be that person picked. Except there's a transfer student from America who comes to the school and comedy and drama ensue.
Brianna (TBP)
I love that it's like, the whole title is School Girls; or the African Mean Girls, and I like that you've done the whole reverse thing because obviously, Cady comes from Africa to America, I love that.
Jocelyn Bioh
Yes! Well I mean, you know, the kind of like logline elevator pitch that I've even just delivered to you feels very similar to, you know, to Mean Girls, and I thought "Oh, I could like kind of immediately contextualize at least the like nuts and bolts of the play, or at least what the setup of the play is in the title." Because of how popular that film is. But I think that's, that's a way to kind of bring people in. However, once they come into the play, they realise that like, you know, it's a completely different story, a completely different thing. Sure, you can recognize, you know, elements of, kind of like the high school trope, so like, the Mean Girls and the, you know, fire girls, and nerdy ones like all of the things that kind of are universal that exists in every school. However, the centre of this play actually deals with colourism, which I think is a surprise for people once they realize that's what we're, what we're dealing with. And so - but it's never mentioned in the play, the word's not mentioned. And it's not about surprising anyone, it's just about kind of opening people's eyes to like, how kind of Western ideas of beauty have influenced even this small little group of girls at the school in Ghana. And it being set in the 80s. It also kind of like, brings together two different audiences where like the kind of nostalgic people who maybe went to school, you know, back in the day, and they recognize much of this school setting. and even the younger people who maybe are in a world of all social media, you know whatever, but still recognize that those tropes and dynamics exist within friendships. And so it's a real middle meeter, I guess is the best way I could describe that, and yeah, I think people come in expecting the play to be one thing and leave out, hopefully, cross fingers moved by what the story ended up being.
Brianna (TBP)
Something that I read when I was doing a little bit of research was that the thing that you are consistently praised for, and I say it now because you've mentioned the comedy, you're consistently praised for using joy, humour and comedy to really humanize your characters, get into their emotions, deal with these tricky subjects. How did you kind of figure your route into that? How did you go okay, I don't want to do dark dramas about these hard subjects. We can talk about them in a way that's light and is actually entertaining.
Jocelyn Bioh
It's a weird thing because like, I didn't even know that I was a comedic writer until I started writing things, pieces that I thought were like really dark, and you know, heavy, and then we do a reading of and everyone's laughing, and I'm like, "Oh, I guess it's a dark comedy." So I think my, my natural kind of approach to anything, is a tone that feels inviting, and light and fun. I mean, at the end of the day, comedy is just a funny way of being serious. And so finding a way to root something that's so truthful, that ends up being funny is kind of where I think my voice lands. You know, it's a cycle. I always say, like family is like either, you know, the source of all comedy, or all pain. And it's like, you know, whenever we're talking about a funny story about our mom, or uncle, or you know, our sister or cousin, you know, it’s funny because whatever they did, or whatever they said, is rooted in so much truth that you can't help but laugh. And I think that that's always kind of like my baseline from where I'm starting. So, I mean, I guess the short answer is just, I can't help but write that way. Because I think that's just naturally where my voice lives. But I do find that kind of, like, Spoonful of Sugar mentality is really, really helpful and inviting. You can make anyone cry. Any story can be super depressing. I think we kind of affiliate a lot of plays, you know, with that feeling of just like, dark dread, you know?
Brianna (TBP)
The Melancholy.
Jocelyn Bioh
Right. Yeah. And I think it's like, sometimes it's nice to be able to invite an audience in, make them laugh, you know, and then they kind of find themselves surprised by how moved or emotional they are, in the end, because they've experienced a range of emotions. And, you know, I think it's a really good tactic. So, as long as I'm able to still keep doing it successfully, I'm gonna keep trying to do it this way. Yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
I think it's a really, really clever way of doing it. Everything that you've said, I'm just sat here like, "She's a very clever woman", because pitching it as Mean Girls immediately audiences are like, "Well, I love Mean Girls, that's a bit of nostalgia", pitching it as like, "it's set in the 1980s." Again, even for me, and I wasn't born in the 80s, I was born in the 90s. But even me, I'm like, "I love that decade. I want to go." Doing it through comedy, like, these are topics that, you know, for the people that deal with them? They're hard, and they're heavy. And for, unfortunately, some of the people that don't deal with them, they're like, "Well, I don't want to go and be preached to." So yeah, you're really clever with all the ways that you've done this. It's very, very smart. So you studied initially, English and theatre and then mastered in writing, is that correct?
Jocelyn Bioh
That's correct. Yeah. So I'm still an actor, I still work, you know, as an actor as well. But I, when I got into a masters - Columbia's master's program for playwriting - I just thought I would roll the dice and just see, you know, like, I'm gonna maybe continue to do both, and maybe it would be better, I get more studied and trained to really hone my voice as a writer in graduate school, but yeah, I think I always just, it was always, it was always gonna be there. I think in hindsight, now, I was always going to be a writer, I just didn't know that that was how it's gonna pan out.
Brianna (TBP)
So was the stage, and being on stage your first kind of - the way your love of storytelling kind of manifested first? And then you found writing later.
Jocelyn Bioh
100%. Yeah, well, I grew up in an area of New York called Washington Heights, which, you know, has now been made more famous by Lin Manuel Miranda, so shout out to him. And it's a predominantly, you know, Latine neighbourhood. But, you know, most of us of course, were like, first generation immigrant kids, so, there was a lot of like community centres, dance centres, art centres that were like, right down the block, or, you know, up the street from me. And so, Saturdays, I would spend my whole day at the community centre dance classes, you know, doing little plays and things like that. So I always loved performing. I always, you know, knew I wanted to be on stage, I really thought it would be as a dancer, and it was just like, dance led to you know, singing, singing and musical theatre, singing led to being in plays. It all kind of organically flowed. Kind of each, you know, stage of my life. And then the kind of final part was in college when I started writing. So it all feels like it happened very organically. But I think theatre is really, you know, powerful. It's crazy, it's intense it's like, it's all the things, but it's a really, really powerful art form that is so, so influential. And yeah, I just, it's wild how it all kind of laid out in this way.
Brianna (TBP)
So would you, or do you want to get back on stage? Like, obviously you love the writing, but is there part of you that's like, I want to go tell someone else's story.
Jocelyn Bioh
I do. I mean, it's been this is the longest that I haven't been in a play willingly. You know, like, as an actor, you always have, you know, periods where you just may not work. So this is definitely the longest period I've had, where I haven't worked on stage, and I am itching to get back. But I think it's got to be the right thing. And right now, I feel like, I'm not quite done yet with what I want to do with my writing. But I think, I feel, you know, I'm not breaking any news here. But I do feel like, within the next couple of years, I probably will find myself back doing a play again.
Brianna (TBP)
That'll be exciting!
Jocelyn Bioh
It will be, it'll be crazy too I hope I don't try to like secretly rewrite the play!
Brianna (TBP)
I was gonna ask, because I know, like, I know quite a few actors that say they still love the theatre, but they kind of struggled to go and sit and watch theatre now. Because they're like, picking apart performances. You know, "Oh, that's what I would have done, this is what I would have done." Do you find yourself doing that with scripts? Are you like, oh, I would have changed that, I would have done this differently?
Jocelyn Bioh
If I find that it just doesn't really work. But I really find that I learn a lot as an audience member just experiencing the play, or the musical, just for what it is, you know, even if there's something that didn't work, I feel like I don't even analyze what didn't in work about it until the play is over, or the show's over. I also really enjoy going to the theatre too, I see shows probably like twice or three times a week. It's crazy. So that's also a big part of my love for the theatre, it's actually going and seeing shows and enjoying shows as well. So no, I don't feel like I analyze anything until it's over. Which is probably good and healthy.
Brianna (TBP)
Definitely. Yeah, you'd possibly lose your love for it. I think if you did that, like you'd forget kind of what got you into it in the first place. So what were the stories that made you fall in love with storytelling?
Jocelyn Bioh
Weirdly, even though I grew up in New York, which is like epicenter of theatre, you know, Broadway the whole bit, you know, we were not a family who had a lot of money. So I actually really never saw a lot of Broadway shows or anything like that, when I was younger. My way in was actually, like, TV was like, you know, 80s, 90s, like sitcoms, which you know, in hindsight really are just kind of like mini theatre, you know, you're in front of a live studio audience, you're doing it, you know, you're only doing a couple of takes maybe, sometimes you're doing it live period, and it's airing, like that. And so I just really loved the way that like, comedy and, and storytelling, family, friends, whatever the show was about, would kind of like, you know, present a problem, the problem would cause chaos, and then it would kind of be solved somewhat, you know, in the end, and I just loved kind of analyzing and watching like, what the problem would be and how it gets solved. I was addicted to that kind of like structure. It really was, I don't know, a big huge motivator for me and, and they're stories that like, remain ingrained. I mean, we all love, you know, certain TV shows, or you know, things like that. But I, I found that I really loved and appreciated how those stories can make you laugh, make you feel something. And kind of, like, still live with you, you know, as you go on. It's the reason why all of us are like, whatever show you love. I Love Lucy or, you know, Fresh Prince, you're like, "I love the episode when..." you know, because it's you're in love with the story of the episode. And I think that was where it all started. And it's again, in hindsight, I'm like, oh, that's probably why I like, you know, comedy because I was influenced by it. When I was younger, and I didn't even realize so, yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
It's so funny that you mentioned the Fresh Prince, because as you were talking, I was actually like, "Oh, that reminds me the episode of Fresh Prince where like, Will, his dad doesn't want to see him." And yeah -
Jocelyn Bioh
I mean, it's an iconic episode and I think that's for a reason. The story of that episode, you know, and the emotional journey he went through on a show that largely is comedic like you it really touched you and resonates with you and, yeah, exactly. I don't know anybody who doesn't know that show, loves that show, and particularly names that episode. So it's been 20 years, right, since that show has even aired probably longer and like, we're still thinking of and remembering that and that's the power of like, really good storytelling.
Brianna (TBP)
So I wanted, I ask this question to everyone, but I kind of want to pitch it to you a little bit differently. Because what I ask everyone is "What does it mean to be Black to you." But what's really interesting about you as an American - and you're the first American I've spoken to that this applies to - you know where in Africa your Blackness comes from. Rather than being just African American you can say "I'm Ghanaian American" how did kind of knowing that, knowing exactly where your roots are from, alter maybe your cultural experience as a black American versus someone that hasn't got that kind of connection?
Jocelyn Bioh
I think what, especially being first generation growing up in America, it actually gave me a really unique perspective, because I really understood the kind of history and conflict of both sides of the coin. I think my parents are part of a generation of Black immigrants who were brought to America or came to America willingly. Whereas all of my, you know, colleagues and people that I grew up with, you know, are descendants of black Africans who did not come to America willingly. And so I'm walking through the space, I walk through the streets in America as a black woman, as a black American woman, no one knows, you know, what my heritage is, unless they, you know, sit down and ask, but that's certainly not going to protect me from any sort of, you know, racism or violence or anything. And so I feel like I have the unique perspective in that way. Of like me, yes, knowing, you know, culturally where I come from, being able to go back to Ghana, and being able to call it home. But also understand the root responsibility and oppression that black American people face, because that's what I feel like I am. I'm also somebody too who has like, weirdly, ripped cultural lines, you know. My parents came to America and wanted to completely assimilate their children. I don't speak Twi, which is my parents native tongue, fluently at all. So, in many ways, like, I'm holding on to only what I know, in terms of places and food and whatever, but like I culturally maybe don't even have all the things like my native tongue to be able to really, you know, root me in and feeling so solidly Ghanian. So, even having that kind of like, you know, weird perspective gives me - I feel like I understand both sides in a really, you know, specific way, you know? Look, I'm married now, my husband is black American, I'm with child as well. And like, I'm thinking about, like, what, you know, our child's future is going to be as well in terms of like, cultural understanding of who they are and what I can give to them and if nothing else, they will be, you know, very proud of who they are, they will walk in, you know, their blackness and with their head held high, but also understanding like, what, hopefully will be a different, you know, white patriarchal society that they're stepping into. I hope it'll be different.
Brianna (TBP)
God I hope it'll be different.
Jocelyn Bioh
I know, but we, for now, here's where we are. So, yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
Congratulations though, that's exciting having a baby and all of this happening for you!
Jocelyn Bioh
Thank you. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot of chaos.
Brianna (TBP)
*Laughs* I want to talk a little bit then about you touched on the language thing. It's really interesting thing about first generation children, because I'm the same. My dad's Nigerian, my mum's Irish. And there's like a little thing there that's fascinating to me is that my dad can speak Yoruba. But he had no interest in teaching us how to speak Yoruba, not a clue. Couldn't if you tried. But my mom, she can't speak Irish. Because basically, the British told the Irish they weren't allowed to speak it and they'd be punished if they did. So my grandparents, my granddad is the last kind of member of our family that can understand it to a degree. And I think that's really interesting about first generation immigrants that we kind of - our parents were like, "No, we just need to assimilate." And then there's us like, "no, please..."
Jocelyn Bioh
Yeah, you don't want the culture to be washed away, but you also understand that they're coming to wherever, you know, whether it's England or America, in search of something better, and and, you know, they've also been trained up to think that better sometimes is just washing the culture away. I think in hindsight, they now wish it wasn't that way. Yeah. And so I think I felt an incredible responsibility too even as someone who's first generation who really only writes about, you know, kind of like modern day African experiences, to really educate people on like, who we are, that Africa is not a country that it's, you know, that it's a continent full of, like, lively culture that is not just a singular narrative that is often kind of associated with most of our stories. And to kind of like, connect the diaspora in a way that has continued to be pulled apart. And that's super important for me, and I felt a lot of responsibility as someone who's kind of the first person in my family who was able to do something artistic in this way. So it's, it's also important, important for me as well.
Brianna (TBP)
It's so important. I want to go back to the play, because that is technically what we're here to talk about. You said it's set in Ghana. So I'd love to know, did you kind of did you become closer to your mom in the writing of this play? Could you go to her for a lot of kind of, "please tell me what it was actually like being at a boarding school in Ghana."
Jocelyn Bioh
I honestly, I honestly didn't because I had, you know, years and years of growing up with her hearing her stories. I'd been to the school before, every time we would visit Ghana, I had been up to Aburi and we've gone up to it's like in this beautiful kind of mountainous area. It's like gorgeous up there. There's like - it's like right near the botanical gardens and all of these things. So I knew so much about her life and her experiences, and I really understood what her family dynamic was, you know, I went on all the family trips to Ghana. So I really didn't need to pull from her in any way. I think, you know, like all moms like my mom's complicated. But I feel like she's starting to learn that I understand her more, as she continues to read more of my work.
Brianna (TBP)
That's a lovely thing.
Jocelyn Bioh
I think, I think so we'll see, we'll see.
Brianna (TBP)
Because that can be quite tricky. As you kind of as you get older, and you become a woman in your own right, it can put strains on the mother daughter relationship, because you kind of don't need them in the same way. But that's a really lovely tool that your mom has to be able to go "Oh, she does see me and she does understand me" like, not everyone has that, that's a really lovely thing.
Jocelyn Bioh
They may not be able to articulate that because they're you know, there's like that kind of hard immigrant exterior that like, you know, doesn't ever share feelings or thoughts, but I think, I think she does. I think she does and with each play, I think she sees more and more facets of herself and her experiences that I've put in there and you know, kind of is maybe surprised by it so I feel closer to her even if it wasn't about sitting down and having like a traditional conversation with her about it. Yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
That's really special. How involved are you getting to be in the kind of casting process for the UK run? (Casting is now complete, and announced!)
Jocelyn Bioh
I've been fully involved! Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're still finishing up some casting. But I've been fully involved. Thank God for modern technology. I've been able to watch and see all the tapes and chime in with my - I've worked very closely with my director Monique, and the casting director. So I've been really involved. And it's actually been, you know, quite lovely, because I, I'm the plays now about to be six years old. So I really know it well. I've heard it and seen it a bajillion times I feel like and so you, it's so odd that even if we're in a different, you know, country, that it's like, the person comes in, and you just hear them speaking, you just know immediately. That's it, you know. And I think that speaks to how clearly these characters are on the page that it's all been very clear and quick about who's the right fit for the roles so I'm excited for everyone to see them. It's really lovely. They're great. Great, great cast.
Brianna (TBP)
Oh, I'm really excited to see it! Thank you so much for your time.
Jocelyn Bioh
No, thank you, it was great talking to you.