ICW: Elliotte Williams N’Dure
After I saw Unfortunate on Tuesday night, I sat down with leading actress Elliotte Williams N’Dure to chat about life, growing up, the beauty of the arts, the joy that is this musical, and of course what it means to be Black. We had such a rich conversation, we could have spoken for hours (don’t worry, we didn’t!). Go on, give it a read - and let me know your thoughts in the comments below!
Brianna (TBP)
Hi Elliotte!
Elliotte
Hi Brianna, how’s it going?
Brianna (TBP)
Not too bad, how are you?
Elliotte
Yeah not bad, not bad. Just enjoying the late start, my first late start of the week.
Brianna (TBP)
Oh nice, love that for you! How are you feeling, I know you weren’t too well last week?
Elliotte
Yeah, much better, the voice has returned so we’re back, we’re back at it.
Brianna (TBP)
Perfect! I saw the show last night. I didn’t have any expectations going in, I just love a sort of camp disney thing so I was excited for it, but my goodness it blew me away.
Elliotte
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for saying that! That’s what we aim for.
Brianna (TBP)
So let's get into it. So, let's start with where did you grow up? And how did that kind of lead you into music and performance?
Elliotte
I grew up in Hackney, I’m a Hackney girl through and through. I was born here. I was raised here. And I still live here. How did it - my family are really musical. My mum and dad both sing - not professionally - my dad never sang, well he does a bit of work here and there. But music was just a big part of our home culture. You know, like, we used to make up songs like about everything. We'd make up songs on the way to school, my dad was a lot of the lead on that just, he'd just make up songs all the time. And we'd just be singing together, we'd sing music at home and it was just always instilled in us, like, as part of our communication, you know, and part of a way of bonding.
Brianna (TBP)
That sounds so joyous!
Elliotte
It was! It really was and it still is, you know, we still sing together now. You know, my sister's a singer and she's out there doing her thing and doing really well, and my brothers both taught themselves instruments - they don't practice like me and my sister do, they don't do music as a profession, but we all just still to this day really just vocalise everything we're feeling. Like it could (singing) "Come downstairs for dinner", it could be anything. And that's how we communicate with each other. And for me personally, I've just always been interested in the arts. I love dancing. I loved acting from when I was really young. And it just felt like a natural progression.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah, definitely. If I had a voice like you, my friends and I always say this, if we could sing, we'd be so annoying because we would sing everything. I love that you guys do that.
Elliotte
Yeah, it's just yeah, it's lucky that we can all hold a tune so it does sound good. But more so it just feels good, you know?
Brianna (TBP)
So people might know your name more for like traditional music, like straight songs. How did you make that change into musical theatre? Because you've done a fair bit over the last couple of years? Well, ignoring the COVID years.
Elliotte
It's a weird one. A lot of stuff is - a lot of opportunities have come to me by happenstance. I'm sure the universe has been leading me down this path for a long time and I was not really feeling it when I was really young. But I didn't train, I didn't go to theatre school. I danced very young between the ages of 6 and 16. And yeah, I didn't do any formal training. I got into house music by accident. I was in Sainsbury's in Kingsland shopping centre, singing. I was with my younger sister and my cousin and I was just singing. I was 20 years old, just pushing the trolley and getting shopping, they're running around like crazy animals, and I'm just singing. And a guy called Benjamin Pederson heard me and said, do you sing? I said, yep. He said do you sing house music? I was like, No. He was like, would you be willing to I was like, Sure. And that's how that started. And then, you know, through the years kind of starting to know more singers and more people in industry and when I turned 24 a friend of mine - because I applied to X Factor under the pressures of the people around me, cos it’s not really my thing. But I applied for X Factor and I met someone, who suggested me to a producer, that was in touch with a theatre production director called Kate Prince, who was producing Some Like It Hip Hop, which was the first theatre production I ever did. They just suggested me, by word of mouth they got me into the final audition because they were already in the process. And it kind of just kicked off from there. And yeah, just little by little, again, through word of mouth and through kind of my own networking, got further and further into it and then got an agent and now we're here today. So I don't know, it just kind of - the path felt like it was already laid. And I just had to be like, “Oh, this is one for me. Okay, here we go.” So yeah, it was weird, but definitely feels like Kismet and meant to go this way.
Brianna (TBP)
It’s like a combination of fate and also your own hard graft, like, because things can be laid out for you. But if you're not open to the opportunities, and you kind of shut things down for yourself, you can shut down those paths. How then did that lead to Unfortunate, how did you get involved with this production?
Elliotte
Well, I got the breakdown from my agent at the beginning of the year. And I mean, first of all, I saw Ursula and I was like, Oh my God, yeah. I love Ursula, how can we not? Like, you know, The Little Mermaid was great. But Ursula was such a standout character in the film, and as much as I was like singing, you know all the (vocalises like Ariel) I was doing all that as a kid. But Ursula was still like, the song that she had, and the power and the prowess, it was so like, attractive. So when I saw that, I was like, oh my god amazing - like to know a bit more about Ursula, and to personify that character. And to me, I know the character was inspired by Divine. But to me, Ursula was always Black.
Brianna (TBP)
100%! Literally 100%! When they cast for the new Disney film, I was like, Excuse me. I don't want to be rude, Melissa McCarthy is great, but why is this a white lady? Because Ursula is a Black icon.
Elliotte
Where is Queen Latifah! Yeah, so when I got the breakdown, I was like, wow, yeah, we're learning more about Ursula, we’re learning about where she came from and her backstory. And I think, you know, as you get older, you obviously start to see the different layers and intersectionality of people. And you're like, Yeah, I want to know more about where Ursula came from, where she came to be. And being involved in that is cool. And like I said, she black. It's about time she got represented Black honey!
Brianna (TBP)
Hard agree, absolutely.
Elliotte
But yeah, she just had that kind of black woman feel about her when I was a kid, I think that's why I related to her as well. So yeah.
Brianna (TBP)
So without giving too much away, because I just want people to go and see it - there's nothing I can say that will really do it justice. But it's incredibly funny. It delivers absolutely straight bangers the whole way through. But it also does a really clever job of commenting on like quite pressing social issues. How important do you think the arts are in creating spaces for those conversations, and actually having a role in creating change?
Elliotte
Very important, I think it's very important. I feel like the arts are for everyone. And therefore - and unfortunately, sometimes in theatre, we don't really see the diversity that we'd like to see - but in terms of art, everyone's really attracted to artistic expression and creativity. And I think at the moment, there's so much like massive political things happening. And for a lot of people, it's very hard to take in, it's very hard to see it, and hear it and deal with it and align it with their everyday life. And I think when they come to a show like this, they’re having a break, but also they are getting the same message. And I think that's where art really kind of connects with people, because it can really bring together so many different people from so many different walks of life. And even though we interpret it differently, can kind of like channel these messages in a palatable way and a way that everyone can understand no matter where you're from, you know. I think art and performance has that power and it's so important that we use it, especially in a time like this, in the days that we're living in at the moment, with the crises that we're living through. And it's hard to just get on with your day. But when you come somewhere you're getting joy, as well as hearing and learning and seeing intersectionality and diversity, like that's, that's a really important thing. To me, at least.
Brianna (TBP)
I also think sometimes these conversations can be made quite - I don't want to say too highly intelligent, that's the wrong term. But it can be very academic, which then for the general public, we kind of feel like there's no way into it and the arts give us that way in.
Elliotte
Exactly. Yes, exactly that. I agree.
Brianna (TBP)
I have a piece planned on the platform that's about how I think sometimes that the combination of nostalgia and capitalism can stifle quite creative voices. I think we look at films, the biggest films right now are like Top Gun: Maverick, we’re getting a Barbie movie, like it's all very nostalgic, but it's not necessarily super creative. But I think this musical is a really perfect example of how nostalgia and creativity can go hand in hand. Why do you think it works so well in this form?
Elliotte
Yeah. I agree. I agree. It can really be a block. I feel like sometimes that combination, like you said, of nostalgia and capitalism can be used as a distraction. Like remember the good old days? No, we're here right now living these days. Yeah. So as much as we we crave for the nostalgia of a time, especially for, you know, certain generations and millennials and older millennials, as I call myself an older millennial, we do crave for a time. Because there was a kind of, it felt like there was a period of, I don't know, maybe it was just perceived peace and like hope and, you know, heal the world. And like there was something going to change about the way that the world is going to be, and we've come so far, and, and now it feels like we're going backwards. Especially with certain things like Wade v. Roe in America, and, you know, the cost of living crisis that we're dealing with here, and so many different things. The fact that we're, we're having to march and we're having our protesting rights taken away from us and our human rights bill completely scrapped and who knows what's going to be coming from that. I understand people's want to kind of go back and be like, Oh, no, I just want to live here. But we're not there, we're here. And I think a story like this, like you said, it does marry that nostalgia, with the creativity and also the messages that exists today. Like, there are multi layers to people, we can't just keep looking at people on a surface layer, we can't see what's on the socials and assume that's people's life. You know, there's, there's a deeper story to everyone. And I think I said in another interview, We are so much more than our worst mistakes, you know? There has to be some good that can come out of the chaos, out of the broken parts we need to build a stronger foundation, as a community. And I think a show like this kind of shows that. We kind of go back and we say, well, this is what it appeared to be but what's really going on? And how can we learn and grow from this?
Brianna (TBP)
So what's next for the show? Is there any plans for future shows after Underbelly finishes? Maybe a tour?
Elliotte
Well, yes, yes, there is. So we are finished on the 16th at Underbelly at Earl’s Court. And then we go to Edinburgh Fringe for the for the whole of August - pretty much the whole of August. And then we're on tour up and down the UK through September to the beginning of October. And then who knows? On to bigger and better platforms for the show. And I think it really has the legs to carry it there.
Brianna (TBP)
Oh it really has the legs.
Elliotte
It’s a great story and a great cast. This is a goodun, and it's new. And I'm so happy to be involved in a new, fresh - as much as we're going back, and we're doing an old older story - it's a new fresh take. And a new written show with new music and stuff we haven't seen before. And I'm very very up for that. Because I do feel like you know, as much as we've got some really strong and beautiful, wonderful shows that have been going for absolutely years. I do feel like there's time for change. It is time for change and there's space for change, there’s space for something new, and there's space for much more diversity within this industry. I feel like new roles that are written for a more diverse group of people are, there's so much space for that now and this is definitely one of them, you know, and it can only get bigger and better from here. And hopefully that will be inspiring to other creators that maybe feel like there isn't a space for them, and there isn't a space for their stories that are new because of what's already out there. But actually, now there is and it's really well received. And people evidently are enjoying it and really want it.
Brianna (TBP)
100%. 100% I mean, there's quite a few new ones happening that are giving that space. You know, like I just saw The Drifter Girls at the Garrick a couple of weeks ago, that's phenomenal. And then there’s the Bob Marley musical, and that’s been called incredible. There's definitely these spaces for new things, and people want it. So I hope people invest in it, because that's what it comes down to.
Elliotte
They’d be silly not to honestly. They’d be silly not to invest in these amazing new productions. Because, like you said, the people want it. So let's get the people they want.
Brianna (TBP)
Let's give them what they want. So what about for you after Unfortunate, what's next for you? Do you have any plans? Or is it just a little bit of a rest?
Elliotte
I got some plans. I've got some time for some rest, I hope but you never know. Because things, you know, things are turning up here and there, there’s some things I can't talk about yet.
Brianna (TBP)
Exciting!
Elliotte
But also I do music, I do music outside of theatre as well. So I'm going to be taking some time to concentrate on my own craft as well. But also still stay within theatre. I love performing. I love being live on stage. So I’m going to try and find the balance in between, you know, performing and passion. My personal passion and putting my own creativity into the forefront. Because I do really want to direct. I write and I really want to direct as well. For Stage and for film and on TV, I just really want to explore this industry and try and diversify it for people like myself.
Brianna (TBP)
Wow, that's exciting. So basically watch this space.
Elliotte
Watch this space gworl! Yeah, I think that, yeah, now that these doors are opening, like, yeah, we need to really push through them.
Brianna (TBP)
We need to be running through those doors, because the way things are going, they might try and close them on us. So we need to force our way through before they get the chance.
Elliotte
Yeah, yeah. And it's still the case. You know, we're still, I think that it's nice to know that work is being done. But there's still a lot of work to be done. A lot of work to be done. And yeah, I want to be part of that.
Brianna (TBP)
So my last question, I exclusively interview black people, people from the black diaspora. So I ask everyone, what does being black mean to you?
Elliotte
What does it mean to me - girl that’s a good question? What does it mean to me? Give me a second.
Brianna (TBP)
Take your time.
Elliotte
What does it mean to me? So, so much, I don’t know how to put into words. I love I love my blackness. I love it. It's it's part of who I am, it’s part of the stories that I want to tell, it’s my history, it’s my ancestry, it’s my future. But what does it mean? Such a good question, my gosh, what does it mean? You could not have me here for two hours. What a question. Help me out here.
Brianna (TBP)
So kind of like for me it’s in terms of identity, because I started this platform trying to basically, I grew up in a very, very white area. And I knew I was different. But I was trying to figure out what does that actually mean? Like I'm a different colour. Okay, but what does that actually mean? What does being black actually mean to me? And to me, it's resilience. It's joy. It's intense creativity. It's carrying the weight of my ancestors and knowing I am living things that they could only ever dream of. It's knowing that potentially my future ancestors might be then thinking the same thing of me and what can I do to build platforms for them? So that's what it is kind of for me.
Elliotte
Yeah, I would have to say, you literally said all the things that were passing through my brain, I was like, do I need to condense this? It’s all of that isn't it really like, this experience of living in this world as a black person is not easy, but I wouldn't change it for the world, not for anything. You know, there's so much richness, there's so much life, there's so much history, there is struggle, and there is trauma and there's pain. But that is really not the whole essence of my blackness. For me, like, there's a certain freedom in my blackness that is a bit juxtaposed to what most people would believe, but yeah, it's freedom. It's like, I have to love myself. Yeah, because there's so many people out here to make me feel like I shouldn't, or to tell me why I can't, or that there's something wrong with it. And I'm like, No, that forces me to love myself, there's no way you're gonna diminish me, or make me feel less than when my blackness is rich, and that through-line of it is to the oldest existence of human beings on this planet. You know, like, there's power in that. There's connection. It’s everything, it’s everything. And yeah, I'm a human first, you know, I mean, I'm a human first, but my existence on this planet is, I am a black woman. One of the most mistreated - if not the most mistreated, misunderstood and oppressed human on this planet. And at the same time, the resilience. I'm so proud to be black, I'm so proud to be a black woman, black female presenting person. I am so proud to be a black queer woman and be hopefully an image or at least to give people that visual of someone in this industry which is very white predominant. The fact that there is space for us and we are here doing it and you know, if you ever feel like this is not for you, or you're too black or you're too big, or you're too loud, or you're too anything - No! I’m all of them things. I'm loud. I'm black. I'm big. I'm queer. I am sometimes the angry black woman. Yes, I am. If I'm black and I'm angry and I'm a woman then I'm an angry black woman. Yes, I am. And there's nothing wrong with that. And I hope that people see that and go you know what, I can see myself in this space now. I can see that I can do and I can be in any space and there's nothing about me that shouldn't be there or can't be there. You know? That’s a deep question girl, nah man you got me all in my feelings.
Brianna (TBP)
I got you all emo right now yeah!
Elliotte
I was thinking Oh my god, what is my blackness to me? Because it it, it is everything. It drives me like, you know, we're so hyper visible. And yet people want to ignore us constantly which is insane, to be hyper visible and yet ignored.
Brianna (TBP)
Honestly, the whole existence is like, hyper contradictions.
Elliotte
Literally, literally. We have to have several versions of ourselves that we display a lot of the time that we can't just be our full selves, because it's too much. Or it's intimidating, or people are scared, or they don't know how to deal with it, or they're enamoured by it, they're in awe of it, or they want to touch it, and they want to invade it. And it's like I have to be my own protector. I have to be my own antagonist and protagonist. I have to speak and I have to be silent at the same time. It’s like constantly being on a tight rope. And at the same time, I just couldn't, I wouldn't change it. I you know, I picked this avatar, this body for a reason. My spirit came to this body for a reason. And, and a lot of the time being black and being in this industry and being in this world - It drives you. It drives you forward to be like yeah, I'm gonna - I'm gonna be black, I'm going to be everything that encompasses it. And I'm gonna be unapologetic about it. It really is everything. And I mean I come from a mixed background - I was actually brought up half of my life by my grandmother who was white and she instilled my because my mum’s dad’s side is from the Gambia, they’re West African. And she instilled all that history and that culture in me. She was like I'm not allowing anyone to take that from you, including me. I had a very - like my mum’s mixed race, all my aunts and uncles were mixed race. A lot of my family have very different colours. And I was lucky that my blackness was something in my family that was - it wasn't to the point where it was like, exoticised, or like put up on a pedestal - but it was big and beautiful. And it was not ignored. It was acknowledged in a way that made me feel so strong and myself.
Brianna (TBP)
I had the exact opposite experience. That's really interesting for me to hear that because my mum's Irish and my dad's Nigerian, but I was brought up by my mum's family, and it was the exact opposite. They thought they were doing the right thing by like, being kind of colourblind and not acknowledging it. But yeah, it was the exact opposite experience. But having said that, if they almost hadn't - if they hadn't done that, I wouldn't be here talking to you. Because it was that need to search out my culture, my identity and find out what it means to be black, who I am, that has driven me to this platform.
Elliotte
Same! Do you know what, same. It's funny that you said that because I grew up in a mixed environment, in a black community being in Hackney, actually in a very mixed and diverse community, specially when I was young, it was a lot of Turkish, Asian, and Black especially, like my school and all of that. So I kind of grew up feeling sometimes outside of it. A bit like, not a sham, but like an imposter. Like I'm, I look Black, and I am Black. But I grew up in this very mixed race environment and under a white matriarch, you know. So I felt like, am I? Am I a part of this? And I was also made to feel that way when I went to secondary school. I don't know how we know as, as black people, we can like look at each other and we’ll know like yeah, you’re from a mixed background or you've got a different something going on with your culture at home. We can see it. And I think it's because we have to be hyper aware in our existence in a racist structured society, we have to be hyper aware about our environment. So we see these things and they saw me and knew like, you know, oh, you're different. You know, I didn't know how they could tell, but they could tell, and would make me feel like, they’d be like “Oh, you're not really black. You're not black, black, are you?” And I'm like “Yes, I am! How dare you.” And that has really driven me that I'm going to be black everywhere I go. I'm not - I've never denied where I'm from. And I'm still proud of all of my ancestry, but I am definitely strong in my blackness because of that side of it. The people making me feel like “Oh, you know, my family made me feel strong. You're trying to take this away from me, you're not gonna take this away from me.” Man, I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours.
Brianna (TBP)
Yeah! It’s been such a good conversation. I'm excited to post and see what people get from it.
Elliotte
I hope I haven't convoluted it. I'm not always great at articulating myself.
Brianna (TBP)
No, I love this kind of thing. That's what I like. When I kind of do these I don't tend to do really structured questions because I don't want it to be like, a generic job interview. It’s called In Conversation With. So I like it to be like a really natural, flowing conversation.
Elliotte
Oh, good. I'm glad. But yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation. You really got me thinking deep. I was like, Wow, what a good question. I never want to sound like I'm just like, like you said, wheeling off things. But yeah, like you. Like I said, my blackness is a big part of my - it’s everything.
Brianna (TBP)
Everything we experience comes from it init?
Elliotte
Yeah. It's an integral part of the core of who I am. Yeah. And it just emanates from there. And I, I've learned as I've gotten older to be completely unapologetic about it. Now don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean that I'm not affected by people's reactions to me. I'm still human, I still feel conscious, I still get made to feel othered and isolated in environments that are predominantly not diverse, or filled with only people Caucasian ancestry. I still feel like there is still, like I said, a lot of work to be done that is not my labour. And I just hope that you know, when people read things in interviews like this and and see me in roles like this that they asked the questions about what can I do? What can I do to make sure that I'm keeping the people of colour, you know, black, and otherwise, how am I keeping the people of colour in my environment safe, welcome, how am I approaching the sensitivities that come around being in a predominantly white environment for them? You know what I mean? I'm hoping that me being who I am unapologetically, asking the questions that I need to ask, stating the things that I need to state. Like the fact that you know that we have a dreadlocked wig for Ursula.
Brianna (TBP)
I was obsessed with that.
Elliotte
I just love that, I love that she is really authentically a black woman - as much as she's purple and and octopus - there's an essence of her culture and my culture as the person playing the character. So I hope that continues to be explored by the people that are not people of colour that are employing us and working with us and collaborating different people of the global majority. I hope that that can inspire people to really think about the things that can be included, because visibility is so important. You know, we have to see these changes, people need to see it, they don’t need to hear about it, like, that's one thing, but they need to see it.
Brianna (TBP)
We need to see actually being put into action, like words are one thing, words are fine.
Elliotte
Words are fine. But actions are important. It cannot be a surface thing, you have to do the work. It is not our labour as black people, as black performers to do the work for you. At the same time, I'm happy to educate, I'm happy to talk. But it shouldn't be more laborious for me than it is for you. And luckily, we've had some really good talks actually around it in our company and with the creators in our company, and they're very open, and they're really out here learning and trying to implement these changes. So yeah, I'm really thankful for that. And yeah, I just feel like like I said, we're, we're at a good, we're going in a good direction. But we've got, we still got a way to go.
Brianna (TBP)
And that is the perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for your time.
Elliotte
No worries. I'm so happy to do the interview. I'm so glad to speak to you!